23-08-2004 20:25									#451
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MtG, I'm well aware that the lethal blast range of a hand grenade or similar ordinance is only 5 m. It takes 53 ft-lbs of energy to create a disabling wound. It takes how much energy to pierce the skin with a fragmant, maybe a tenth that?

quote: According to what? One individual's claim "seared into his memory?"

I dunno, if some smug high-toned whiner caught a fragment of his own grenade in a training mission you might remember treating the wound.

Surely the medic's memory is at least as good as Kerry's. So are you saying maybe Kerry's so-called "seared" memory might not be so accurate? Oh, wait, we aren't allowed to question a hero.

So how many stitches did he get? Why doesn't he release the record and show us all the fell blow he took for God and Country, Mom and Apple Pie?

	23-08-2004 20:29									#452
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I saw that Malkin woman on Dennis Miller. It appalls me that anyone so obviously stupid should be given TV time.

They apparently let them teach philosophy as well.

	23-08-2004 20:30									#453
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm curious, how is the UN supposed to react to the US being led by an admitted war criminal?

Every president we've had who has sent troops into action has been a war criminal, possibly excepting Jimmy Carter, and he's open to debate. We have this nasty habit of targetting civilians and civilian systems, which is a war crime. The only difference with Kerry is that he starts in office being a war criminal.

	23-08-2004 20:33									#454
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He was ashamed of it before he wasn't if that counts for anything, che.

	23-08-2004 20:34									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But I'd tape her mouth shut or find some other means to keep her quiet.

If she's talking politcs while you're having sex, you have bigger problems than her political leanings.

	23-08-2004 20:35									#456
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He was ashamed of it before he wasn't if that counts for anything, che.

So our Presidents should be brazen war criminals?

	23-08-2004 20:39									#457
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quote: It has nothing to do with Kerry- again, Ned just ropes in a Kerry reference as if he or his campaign was responsible for what some telejournalist does or thinks. I know, let's connect Bushbaby with all the outright lies and misinformation put out by the likes of the 'highly reputable' conservative hacks and hackettes such as Coulter and Limbaugh, et al. Just as with the Republican Presidential scandals, you'd like to have it that only Democrat faeces stinks. And with regard to his wounds - frankly you're just speculating. Have you seen his medical records?

No, mb, I haven't seen his medical records, nor have you. Kerry has yet to release them. How many stitches did the wounds take? How many days was the hero out of action? Please do tell. By all accounts the wounds were trivial.

This has everything to do with Kerry. He wants to give a salute, "report for duty," and run on his war record. He's even said that he welcomes inspection. So why are the shills in the various media unwilling to take a closer look when question come up?

	23-08-2004 20:44									#458
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Personally, I don't understand why anyone who is disgusted with Kerry's wartime record isn't similarly disgusted with Bush's wartime record. It smacks of hypocricy. The truth is, we have two self-serving, New England, Yale Skull n' Bones, bluebloods who have likely lied about their military service. To be deeply offended by one while calling the other honest and forthright is just wrong. Either be offended by both or by neither.

	23-08-2004 20:45									#459
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BTW, why don't you get PHs for friendly fire in combat?

	23-08-2004 20:55									#460
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It rewards self inflicted wounds and fragged officers.

	23-08-2004 21:04									#461
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Seems unfair. If you're in combat and you get hurt, you should get a medal regardless of who shot you, unless you wounded yourself on purpose.

	23-08-2004 21:07									#462
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I agree to an extent but there are obviously some behaviors the military doesn't want to encourage.

For example, Max Cleland lost his limbs due to a mistake that he tried to remedy. Doesn't mean that his behavior wasn't valorous.

	23-08-2004 21:15									#463
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I don't think anyone really wants a purple heart.

	23-08-2004 21:19									#464
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Thats kind of the point. There is a contingent that given 3 PH's and your out would want to do so. (Recognize this is not aimed at Kerry but morevoer a faction of folk that might do so.)

	23-08-2004 21:21									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow MtG, I'm well aware that the lethal blast range of a hand grenade or similar ordinance is only 5 m. It takes 53 ft-lbs of energy to create a disabling wound. It takes how much energy to pierce the skin with a fragmant, maybe a tenth that?

If you assume that the grenade was fired only the minimum of 18 meters, the blast effect is only about 1/15 at 18 meters than it is at five. There's not much material to create fragments in any event, and the casing/explosive is not designed as a fragmentation device.

quote: quote: According to what? One individual's claim "seared into his memory?" I dunno, if some smug high-toned whiner caught a fragment of his own grenade in a training mission you might remember treating the wound.

35 years later, with precision as to the dimensions of the fragment? Or maybe you treated some chickenshit radioman 2, then later heard later about Kerry and VVAW, then got together with your buddies and talked about that ******* who "betrayed" you all, then you remembered that chickenshit you treated, except now it's become Kerry. Psych studies have documented that sort of memory process for several decades now. It's how human memory works.

Oh, and since when do "training missions" qualify one for the PH? Oh yeah, I forget, Kerry is supposedly the only O2 in history to recommend himself for decorations and then endorse and approve those recommendations. Or his CO must have been so negligent as to not even know that Kerry was on a training mission. Or they were just being nice, because they knew this was a chickenshit officer they wanted to be rid off ASAP, so chickenshit that they assigned two boats to him, rather than put him in some administrative billet or simply transferring him.

So what you get is different stories, decades after the fact, about what they "think" caused the wound, combined with an extremely low probability event for the wound to be caused that way.

People can question Kerry all they want, this just doesn't amount to much of anything.

quote: Surely the medic's memory is at least as good as Kerry's. So are you saying maybe Kerry's so-called "seared" memory might not be so accurate? Oh, wait, we aren't allowed to question a hero.

It depends on the magnitude of the events and the time. When did Kerry make his "seared into my memory" statement? When did the medic make his? Was the identity and nature of wounds of Kerry so significant in this medic's memory as the position of Kerry's boat in his?

Maybe they're both telling the truth, maybe they're both lying, maybe they both believe they're telling the truth but recall (edit - in)accurately. But the presumption and the claim here (by the SB vets and their supporters) is that they have a universal monopoly on the truth, and Kerry is lying pretty much across the board, and anyone who agrees with Kerry is either lying for political reasons or has been persuaded by Kerry to remember things his way.

quote: So how many stitches did he get? Why doesn't he release the record and show us all the fell blow he took for God and Country, Mom and Apple Pie?

Why doesn't he just switch the entire campaign to praising George W. Bush and answering any allegations the SB vets make? Why don't the SB vets come up with something more substantial than their collective memories and excuses for why others who were there dispute their versions?

	23-08-2004 21:25									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Thats kind of the point. There is a contingent that given 3 PH's and your out would want to do so. (Recognize this is not aimed at Kerry but morevoer a faction of folk that might do so.)

The flip side of that (other than the possible common sense of getting a million dollar wound in some useless shithole war like Vietnam), is that in general, unless there's significant dereliction of duty in the immediate command, people don't get PH's because they ask nicely.

Nor do they get to write, endorse and approve their own recommendations to get one.

	23-08-2004 21:26									#467
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MtG is spot on about the memory stuff.

	23-08-2004 21:35									#468
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Well, quite off topic, but about the PH issue, like most know, I lost most of my little finger in the service and it got amputated because of a mistake of another person, who broke the rules, leading to my injury. It's no scracth in the butt, it's losing part of your body forever. Not a huge deal though, but I didn't even get a diploma for it. Not even a hand shake for it. I didnt' even get paid for it. I didn't even get covered for it 100%. I'm saying, I don't need a medal, but I would have liked a diploma. 'thank you for giving your finger to the country in free of salary service and disfiguring your dominant hand.'.. and if anyone says 'well it wasn't a combat situation', I take offense. I want a diploma for it. Now I got nothing to show for it.

So if Kerry got few stinky medals for something, I couldn't care less. Deserved it or not, what's the big deal, seriously. I'm sure a lot of people didn't get medals when they deserved it. I'm sure many people did get when they didn't deserve it. I'm sure some people threw the medals away. Hey, if I ever get that diploma, I'll wipe my ass with it. Is that disrespecting the army? So what, if someone says I'm not eligble for president because of THAT, I'd say someone has set their values pretty strongly on something. Maybe too heavily.

And the other point is, do you realize how embarrasing it made my salute look? And I had to salute a lot! In here, everyone who is of lesser rank salutes you, even though you're NCO. And then you salute back. And when you live in a place with 100 privates, and cross them all the time, you'll be saluting like a mofo. And then of course you salute the higher ones. Yes to the point. IF someone says, that me wiping my ass to official diploma, or throwing my sergeant buttons to the toilet after I served, hey, some people might take offense. But then again, if they never lost anything, they shouldn't be the ones with the problem.

PS. I never threw anything to the toilet.

	23-08-2004 22:01									#469
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The only way Kerry is going to get out of this is meet the charges head on. Simply saying this a smear orchestrated by Bush is not an answer that anyone but a Democrat will accept.

	23-08-2004 22:16									#470
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So, we don't give out medals for getting injured out of combat zone either. Say if I got a medal for it, and kept it, would I be a person who disrespects every veteran?

	23-08-2004 22:19									#471
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Are you bragging about it claiming yourself a war hero?

	23-08-2004 22:23									#472
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Absolutely. But since one of the arguments was that he didn't deserve some of the PHs, and I didn't either, but if I got one, there would be only few people judging me for it. It's a case of rules. If we bring the bragging issue 'and that's the point damn it!', then let's not come back to the rule thing again.

Besides, he was in a war, and that makes him a hero by default. What makes him a real war hero is that he saved a life of his comrade. Do you say he is NOT a war hero? Because of few stinky medals?

In my eyes every man is a war hero goes to war, and saves a life of his friend. Republican or Democrat. Or even commie. That person is a war hero. I don't care about their political affiliation in that issue at all. To say he is not, well that I don't understand.

	23-08-2004 22:36									#473
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I have claimed him a deceptive self agrandizing braggart in contrast to almost every other Vietnam vet I have had the pleasure of knowing.

His action valorous or not have little to do with his behavior after the fact.

	23-08-2004 22:37									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka In my eyes every man is a war hero goes to war, and saves a life of his friend. Republican or Democrat. Or even commie. That person is a war hero. I don't care about their political affiliation in that issue at all. To say he is not, well that I don't understand.

Had Kerry not exaggerated or downright lied, he would have be considered to be a war hero for saving the life of Rassmann. But a man who distorts the record routinely is not to be trusted by anyone. The issue is not whether he was in combat. He was. The issue is his integrity.

	23-08-2004 22:41									#475
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And that's exactly why I don't understand this debate. Because the fact reamins, he might be bragging, but he IS running for the president. And yet, he at least went to the country to fight. That's why I see republicans shouldn't try to attack Kerry's military record. They should find more lucrative targets, like attacking his economy plans.

	23-08-2004 22:42									#476
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Ned, OK that much I can accept too. Issue about integrity. Well I think that's a legit debate, and I take no sides. By teh way, I'm conservative (I think).

	23-08-2004 22:47									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The issue is his integrity.

Why? You guys don't give a flying **** about Bush's total lack of integrety. It's total hypocricy.

	23-08-2004 22:48									#478
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quote: IF someone says, that me wiping my ass to official diploma, or throwing my sergeant buttons to the toilet after I served, hey, some people might take offense. But then again, if they never lost anything, they shouldn't be the ones with the problem.

You can do what you wish. No skin off my back. Wipe your ass with it. Doesn't matter to me. But if you do it publicly, then you are encouraging people to judge you on the fact that you did it (otherwise, why would you have done it in the first place?).

	23-08-2004 22:48									#479
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka By teh way, I'm conservative (I think).

Pekka, you have to remember, a European conservative is the equivalent of an American communist.

	23-08-2004 22:51									#480
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Why would I do it publicly though.. that would only encourage the hippies.

I guess my analogy failed then. But I almost turned a debate about Kerry about myself. I tihnk that would have been the greatest threadjack in the history of the internet.

The fault is really in the insurance companies anyway. But I want that diploma Biaaaatch!