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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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What I'd like to hear and see are people who were at the scene of these various events who support Kerry's version of events. I am tried of having Democrat political hacks get on the air and simply blame this all on Bush, try to change the topic to the "issues" or instead try to smear the SBvfT.
To date, the only person I have actually scene supporting Kerry is Rassmann. But, honestly, he could have mistaken the fire from the other PCF boats as enemy fire.
The crew who were with Kerry in when he shot the M79 grenade do not confirm enemy fire.
Noone confirms Kerry being in Cambodia on Christmas day 1968 being shot at by the Khmer Rouge and drunken ARVN, even while President Nixon (who was not president then) denied that our troops were in Cambodia.
Noone confirms "5000 meters" of small arms and automatic weapons fire at the Bronze star incident.
Noone confirms that Kerry ordered warning shots in the sanpan incident rather than being asleep at the wheel.
Noone confrims that Kerry charged ashole against "superior forces" when he shot the fleeing, wounded, half naked Cong teenager in the back.
The Post story focuses sole on the Bronze star incident and mistates the inquiry into whether there was enemy fire at all, when the real inquiry is whether there was 5000 meters of enemy fire as Kerry's AAR states.
As I said earlier in this thread, the publication of Kerry's book is what brought all this out. Most of his fellows did not know just how much Kerry had exaggerated or downright lied about what happened in Vietnam, mostly to get purple hearts and medals which he even then intended to turn into a reason to vote for him as president.
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SpencerH
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Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
I don't know how much experience you've had with the M79 / M203 / Mk19, but I really doubt it's possible to frag yourself with one, since the fuze is designed to prevent self-injury.
With the M383 or M384 40mm HE grenade, blast radius is a maximum of 15 meters, while the arming distance of the M533 fuze is 18-36 meters. There's also not enough casing mass in the grenade to have very effective fragment density at 15 meters, so the effects at that range are generally limited to concussive effects.
Unless the Swiftboat vets come up with (and they haven't, it's just another inconsistency of many) a real good explanation for self-inflicted injury, I think it's safe to just disregard those allegations as the sort of stories that go around after the fact about somebody you didn't like. Typical FNG stories, but in this case, not possible as described. |
I dont think its a self-inflicted injury at least not in the sense that he did it on purpose. No matter my dislike and distrust of kerry, I dont think he's a coward. He did, after all, serve in combat with some distinction. AFAIK the reports from that action do not report grenade fire from the vietnamese, only rifle fire. Supposedly though, kerry fired a grenade that landed too close to the ship. Its possible that he was wounded by a fragment from a bullet that broke up after contact with something solid, but descriptions of the fragment are more consistent with a grenade fragment.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
Alleged 'lie', isn't it? |
Nothing alleged about the Cambodia lie. That's why the media won't touch it. It's simple and proven, thus making it impossible to spin. |
And you have 'proof' it's a lie?
The Kerry friendly media like the 'Washington Post' won't touch it?
Sorry but that just doesn't make sense- if it's so easy to prove it's a lie, wouldn't the anti-Kerry hacks and media be all over it like flies on dung?
And yes, Straybow, I both watch and read what conservative pundits do and say- it's called having access to television and newspapers and the internet.
Funny how you think Savings and Loan was nothing to do with President Bush or Reagan- during which Republican Presidents' terms did greatest deregulation occur, and which Republican President's family was embroiled in the savings and loan scandal, and which current Republican President's relative was bailed out by the taxpayer?
I don't know, but for some reason I'm getting 'Bush' coming through the aether.
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publicati...oratefraud.html
As for 'Iran-Contra' - two Presidents 'claim' not to have known what was going on- one, an ex-C.I.A. head was 'left out of the loop', the other was so semi-detached from his job and reality I suppose I could believe his 'claim' not to have known what was going on, but it hardly reflects well on the most powerful man in the world does it?
Frankly your trying to lightly dismiss the two scandals speaks volumes about how smears and scandals work in the United States- a Democrat President has oral sex with an intern and we get months and months of tedious investigation and millions of dollars wasted, and an attempt at impeachment, and a Republican administration breaks American laws, supports terrorists, and sells weapons to a country which held Americans hostage and aided terrorist groups in the Lebanon, and you say it's just a 'pissing contest' between congress and the administration.
'
1) Robert C. McFarlane: pleaded guilty to four counts of withholding information from Congress;
(2) Oliver L. North: convicted of altering and destroying documents, accepting an illegal gratuity, and aiding and abetting in the obstruction of Congress; conviction reversed on appeal;
(3) John M. Poindexter: convicted of conspiracy, false statements, destruction and removal of records, and obstruction of Congress; conviction reversed on appeal;
(4) Richard V. Secord: pleaded guilty to making false statements to Congress;
(5) Albert Hakim: pleaded guilty to supplementing the salary of North;
(6) Thomas G. Clines: convicted of four counts of tax-related offenses for failing to report income from the operations;
(7) Carl R. Channell: pleaded guilty to conspiracy to defraud the United States;
(8) Richard R. Miller: pleaded guilty to conspiracy to defraud the United States;
(9) Clair E. George: convicted of false statements and perjury before Congress;
(10) Duane R. Clarridge: indicted on seven counts of perjury and false statements; pardoned before trial by President Bush;
(11) Alan D. Fiers, Jr.: pleaded guilty to withholding information from Congress;
(12) Joseph F. Fernandez: indicted on four counts of obstruction and false statements; case dismissed when Attorney General Richard L. Thornburgh refused to declassify information needed for his defense;
(13) Elliott Abrams: pleaded guilty to withholding information from Congress;
(14) Caspar W. Weinberger: charged with four counts of false statements and perjury; pardoned before trial by President Bush.
At the time President Bush pardoned Weinberger and Clarridge, he also pardoned George, Fiers, Abrams, and McFarlane.'
http://www.webcom.com/pinknoiz/covert/icsummary.html
That's some piss streak all right.
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Lincoln
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Do me a favor molly and start your own thread about Iran Contra etc. Try to stay on topic. I know this is the Apolyton Off Topic forum but really...
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Lincoln
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Yes, the name is rather confusing...
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Joseph
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Ca. USA
Feb 2000
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Why? If these people who don't like Kerry didn't have the balls or the integrity to raise these allegations when he testified, or each of his three campaigns for Senate, why should they be given any great credence now?
Where's the braying about not raising these claims in a reasonable time, like when all those conservatives were braying in defence of Clarence Thomas over charges that were less than ten years old?
**** 'em if they didn't have any reason to speak out before, and the "we didn't know anything until Kerry's book" excuse is bullshit. Kerry's been vocal for quite some time, and most of these guys, if not all, were well familiar with his role in VVAW decades ago. |
A lot of those guys were still in the Navy when Kerry testified and as such are not allow to testified.
As I read some of these statements from some of you, I'm amaze at the lack of knowledge of how the military works. There are several Vets and several current military personnel posting here and you would think that the civilian posting here would get a sense of what it is like serving on active duty, but I guess not.
Last edited by Joseph on 23-08-2004 at 06:41
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Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:34
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quote:
Given the construction of those boats, I'd also consider a piece of sheet metal or fragment from some part of the boat to be a possibility.
Even if Kerry fired forward and the boat was going full speed, the velocity on the grenade is too great - Kerry still couldn't get himself into the max blast radius of the grenade. |
Well, it's obvious that you still haven't read about any of this, MtG. Kerry wasn't on a Swift Boat when he was injured for his first Purple Heart. He hadn't even been assigned to a Swift Boat yet. He was still training at Cam Ranh Bay and volunteered for a patrol mission with two other guys in an small, foam-filled boat.
The Swifties claim that Kerry got his superficial injury when he fired a grenade too close to the boat, near some rocks on the shore. They think that part of the grenade round ricocheted off the rocks and one small piece hit Kerry. According to the doctor who treated Kerry's wound, the fragment was 1 cm long and about 2-3 mm in diameter. Not consistent with a rifle round and barely penetrated, being removed with tweezers and covered with a Band-Aid. Certainly a Purple Heart worthy injury...
BTW, am I the only one who's actually reading about these things? It'd be nice to know who is talking out their asses, so I don't have to waste time.
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Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:34
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Dole! 
quote:
CRAWFORD, Texas - Former Republican Sen. Bob Dole suggested Sunday that John Kerry (news - web sites) apologize for past testimony before Congress about alleged atrocities during the Vietnam War and joined critics of the Democratic presidential candidate who say he received an early exit from combat for "superficial wounds."
Dole also called on Kerry to release all the records of his service in Vietnam.
...
Dole told CNN's "Late Edition" that he warned Kerry months ago about going "too far" and that the Democrat may have himself to blame for the current situation, in which polls show him losing support among veterans.
"One day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons," Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, `I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.' Maybe he should apologize to all the other 2.5 million veterans who served. He wasn't the only one in Vietnam," said Dole, whose World War II wounds left him without the use of his right arm.
Dole added: "And here's, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out." |
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...pr/war_politics
Maybe Bob Kerrey will come out against Kerry soon, as well. Bob's probably a bit upset that Kerry has been falsely claiming to have occupied the vice-chairmanship of the Senate Intelligence commitee when it was actually him.
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Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:34
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quote:
We Are Waiting
Campaign '04: John Kerry says he'll fight claims he lied about or exaggerated his service in Vietnam. The best way to fight such charges would be to stop calling people names and start providing some answers.
He'll have to show that the charges by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are false. That's a tall order. The allegations are numerous, well documented and quite serious.
In general, they insist that Kerry has consistently overstated his heroism, that many accounts of his service in Vietnam are not true and that he has slandered his fellow veterans by claiming they were guilty of widespread war crimes and atrocities.
It's too bad Kerry has responded to these charges (and particularly those raised in the book "Unfit for Command" by former Swift boat commander John O'Neill) by vowing to "attack."
So far, his "attack" seems to be of the political and personal kind, with Kerry and his followers claiming that O'Neill, and the 250 or so Swift boat vets who back him, are Republican Party shills.
On Friday, Kerry filed a legal complaint about O'Neill's group.
But that won't do. Only answers will. The presidency of the United States is too important to give to someone with something to hide. Questions about Kerry's fitness to be commander in chief won't go away if he simply stonewalls and makes baseless charges of political bias.
After all, it was Kerry himself (with the smart salute and "reporting for duty" opening of his convention speech) who made his military service the keystone of his campaign. And it is Kerry who has repeatedly compared himself favorably with President Bush on that score.
In so doing, he's all but ignored his undistinguished 20-year career in the U.S. Senate and his decade as an anti-war activist.
Fair enough. Now we have questions about Vietnam. Such as:
EDid Kerry commit war atrocities? This charge would seem unduly harsh to level at someone who fought in a war more than three decades ago Eexcept for the fact that he himself made it.
In a 1971 appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press," Kerry said: "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed . . ."
Earlier that year, Kerry claimed his now-beloved "band of brothers" were broadly guilty of war crimes as well.
During the infamous "Winter Soldier Investigation" by anti-war activists in early 1971, Kerry and his pals described a shocking array of atrocities that U.S. troops routinely committed: arson, rape, torture, murder, burning of villages, all part of official policy.
This, more than anything, explains the still-burning ire of his former comrades in arms.
As O'Neill wrote: "Millions of Vietnam veterans will never forget Kerry's spinning of lies, lies so damaging to his comrades but so profitable to himself."
Kerry never provided evidence that such war crimes were official policy or routine. But he (and O'Neill) have raised questions about his own behavior in Vietnam.
EDid Kerry lie about "Christmas in Cambodia"? This is a story Kerry has repeated over and over as explanation for his later metamorphosis from decorated hero into staunch anti-war activist.
"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas," Kerry wrote in the Boston Herald in October 1979. "The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."
A couple of problems. Nixon wasn't president on Christmas Eve 1968. Lyndon Johnson was. In fact, official records of his service show Kerry was never in Cambodia, as his campaign now concedes.
Subsequent "clarifications" (saying Kerry in ensuing months served as a kind of ferry master for Green Berets, CIA agents and Navy Seals into Cambodia) likewise have run afoul of the truth. There simply is no evidence for it.
Yet, on the floor of the Senate, Kerry said the experience was "seared - seared" into his memory.
Bad memory, or just a lie? People deserve an explanation.
EKerry's medals. Kerry returned from his 4 1/2 month stint in Vietnam with three Purple Hearts for wounds, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star for gallantry.
But some of those who served with him cast doubt on how he earned his medals and whether he deserved them. Harsh charges, to be sure. O'Neill's book, however, raises serious evidence to support the charges. Kerry must respond.
Specifically, O'Neill alleges Kerry got his first and third Purple Hearts for mishandling grenades, in one case, for setting off one too close to his boat, and in the other, throwing a grenade into a rice bin. In neither case was he seriously wounded, says O'Neill.
Questions abound, too, about his Bronze Star, received for pulling special forces Lt. Jim Rassman out of the water under hostile fire, and his Silver Star, given after Kerry beached his boat in the face of an ambush and killed an enemy soldier.
In the first case, O'Neill and others charge, Kerry was fleeing action when he picked up Rassman. In the second case, the soldier was a "skinny kid" who was wounded and running away.
We'd like to know and suspect the American people would, too.
You may be wondering: Why raise these questions now, in the heat of a campaign? Sadly, the major media have all but ignored questions of Kerry's record. They've been too busy looking for scandal in Bush's past and, more recently, attacking O'Neill and anyone else who dares question Kerry's glowing accounts of his service.
The bias is pervasive. As the Media Research Center, a media watchdog, pointed out, ABC, CBS and NBC did 75 stories on charges Bush was "AWOL" from the National Guard. They did nine on claims Kerry fibbed about his war record. Biased might be too kind a description.
The major media in this country are overwhelmingly liberal and refuse to ask the questions that need to be asked. They do their viewers and readers (and Kerry for that matter) a disservice.
If Kerry thinks he's being slandered, he should answer with facts not with insults, threats and lawsuits.
We have questions, senator. We're ready for your answers. |
http://www.investors.com/editorial/issues.asp?v=8/23
That sums up my feelings on the issue pretty well...
Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 23-08-2004 at 06:20
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
So can you cite a specific example equal to Chris Matthews "meltdown" (as Ned put it)? Who has ejected a guest from a show, or prevented a guest from answering a question asked? |
Does cutting a caller off count?
'Or for that matter, how [Rush] could disparage a war hero when he himself had dodged the Vietnam Draft by claiming to have a boil on his butt.
"He tried to lie [his way] out of this but I explained that his 4-F form listing a 'pilonidal cyst' was printed in books for all to see [i.e., "The Rush Limbaugh Story" by Paul D. Colford, St. Martin's Press, 1993, in Chapter 2: Beating the Draft]. At that point, I was cut off the air and as Rush stuttered and stumbled around like I have never heard him before, his screener came back online and told me, 'You're out of here, buddy -- we've got you pegged and you'll never call again.' '
http://www.rushlimbaughonline.com/a...rushbusted1.htm
Of course you or Ned have yet to show what a talk show host's behaviour has to do with John Kerry- is John Kerry his employer?
His floor manager?
His sponsor?
Or was it just part of Ned's hysterical attempt to link Kerry with everything under the sun?
Note yet again, that Ned has only said what happened, not provided us with an actual transcript, nor has he said how it is actually meant to be linked with Kerry, just somehow, nebulously, it is.
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Lincoln
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
That sums up my feelings on the issue pretty well... |
Mine too.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:34
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As to Kerry accusing all Vets of committing war crimes, the quotes we cutoff quotes, a journalistic no-no. Kerry said that Vets told him that they had personally seen or had done ". . ." but they cut that part off, and make it look like Kerry was saying something else. You can get fired for that if you do it in the news . . . unless you work for Fox.
As for the rest of the issues, don't know, don't care, not voting for him in any event. Even if he lied though, he's still better than Bush, he used political connections to avoid being drafted into combat, getting himself into a unit he was unqualified to be in and which wasn't going to be deployed overseas, then refusing to take a physical after the government spent a million dollars training him. Maybe he should have to pay us back. 
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
Given the construction of those boats, I'd also consider a piece of sheet metal or fragment from some part of the boat to be a possibility.
Even if Kerry fired forward and the boat was going full speed, the velocity on the grenade is too great - Kerry still couldn't get himself into the max blast radius of the grenade. |
Well, it's obvious that you still haven't read about any of this, MtG. Kerry wasn't on a Swift Boat when he was injured for his first Purple Heart. He hadn't even been assigned to a Swift Boat yet. He was still training at Cam Ranh Bay and volunteered for a patrol mission with two other guys in an small, foam-filled boat.
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Did I say he was on a swiftboat specifically, numbnuts? Yeah, the entire thing was made of foam, weapons, engine and all.  They fired nerf grenades, even. 
quote:
The Swifties claim that Kerry got his superficial injury when he fired a grenade too close to the boat, near some rocks on the shore. They think that part of the grenade round ricocheted off the rocks and one small piece hit Kerry.
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I know you're just a teenager, honey, so you've never "fired" one of the ****ing things. To arm, it has to go 18 meters minimum. The blast radius is 15 meters max. Nothing richochets back (i.e. hits an object, loses forward velocity, reverses direction) as far as it would travel directly without decellerating. In other words, it won't go far enough to arm, richochet off anything, and come all the way back to the launcher. It won't even come back as far as the basic blast radius, nor will pieces of it. It just doesn't ****ing happen that way.
So what the swifties think is irrelevant, unless they've got some sort of mind control that alters the physics of the ****ing weapon.
quote:
According to the doctor who treated Kerry's wound, the fragment was 1 cm long and about 2-3 mm in diameter. Not consistent with a rifle round and barely penetrated, being removed with tweezers and covered with a Band-Aid.
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According to the doctor? I supposed those details were "seared in his memory" too?
quote:
BTW, am I the only one who's actually reading about these things? It'd be nice to know who is talking out their asses, so I don't have to waste time. |
Well, you're doing a good job of talking out your ass because you swallow whatever you read that supports what you want to believe, and you don't know enough to even spot bullshit like the richochet off the rock story.
You'd be the kind who'd strip the entire base clean looking for batteries for a sound-powered telephone. 
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23-08-2004 01:48
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