20-08-2004 09:38									#91
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Pekka, You also do not seem to understand that Kerry received his medals based on false reports he himself filed. Virtually all of his fellow officers who served with Kerry and were at the same engagements flatly state that Kerry lied in those reports.

But more than this. Kerry was also a very bad commander in a number of respects, so much so that his fellow officers began to despise him even then.

I can only hope that in the upcoming debates that someone asks Kerry about all this. I am afraid, though, we will hear nothing as the moderators appear to be uniformly among those "elite" media who are doing everything they can to suppress this story.

	20-08-2004 10:10									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Pekka, You also do not seem to understand that Kerry received his medals based on false reports he himself filed.

What proof do you have that Kerry filed the reports?

Thurlow was the office in command during the action so he would have had to sign off on any after-action report. You remember Thurlow, the guy who 35 years later claims there were no shots fired, yet the documents say otherwise.

The most plausible explanation is that Thurlow is mistaken about what happened. People usually have hazy memories about things that happened decades ago. Thurlow can't even remember what the citation for his medal said. Add in selective memory and the result is a suspect story.

	20-08-2004 10:15									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Nixon hated Kerry, was going ****in' apesh*t over Kerry, and ordered the Navy to investigate him and turn up any dirt they could. They failed to do so.

Yup, that's the biggest flaw in the "Kerry medal fraud" conspiracy theory.

If Kerry had tricked the military establishment into giving him a medal then it would have been exposed back then.

	20-08-2004 10:34									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What proof do you have that Kerry filed the reports? Thurlow was the office in command during the action so he would have had to sign off on any after-action report. You remember Thurlow, the guy who 35 years later claims there were no shots fired, yet the documents say otherwise. The most plausible explanation is that Thurlow is mistaken about what happened. People usually have hazy memories about things that happened decades ago. Thurlow can't even remember what the citation for his medal said. Add in selective memory and the result is a suspect story.

There were five boat commanding officers there, including Kerry. Four of the five, everyone but Kerry, say there was no enemy fire and further say that Kerry filed the report saying there was enemy fire.

Also, only Kerry initially fled the scene to later return. Fleeing the enemy was apparently a common practice of Kerry.

	20-08-2004 10:37									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yup, that's the biggest flaw in the "Kerry medal fraud" conspiracy theory. If Kerry had tricked the military establishment into giving him a medal then it would have been exposed back then.

Good point.

But you have to admit that Kerry running for president and touting his war record have given a lot of people incentive to conduct a more "thorough" review.

	20-08-2004 11:15									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Both your presidential candidates are complete losers, I'd call it a day and change countries if I was American.

Problem with that is that whoever gets left behind is left in possession of THE BUTTON.

Oh God, we're doomed!

	20-08-2004 11:18									#97
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I wouldn't admit any such thing because it is wrong.

When Kerry spoke out against the war he was seen by pro-war side as being a traitor (while the anti-war side saw him as a patriot). Just read what people like Thurlow are saying and you get a sense of how much the pro-war side hated him back then.

The military establishment was gunning for him. Dirty tricks Nixon and the rest of the Republicans wanted him taken down.

They did thorough and complete reviews of his record. They dug down into the muck and they couldn't get anything on him.

I would say that Kerry's decision to run for president has given Republicans an incentive to spread as much muck as possible.

The irony is that the Republican tactics hurt them more than the Democrats. Everytime the Republicans attack Kerry's record, they remind people that he served in Vietnam and Bush did not.

The Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot.

	20-08-2004 11:23									#98
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Maybe not. Someone or other was running at Bush long ago based on his 'record' in the 60's (maybe early 70's). They got a lot of free mud out of that. The damage to Bush has already been done to any who will listen. What remains to be seen is how damaging this tempest will be to Kerry.

	20-08-2004 11:24									#99
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk All we want is a thorough discussion of Kerry's war record, which he introduced as a reason to vote for him. Why shouldn't this be investigated?

As Oliphant of The Boston Globe pointed out tonight on The News Hour with Tom Leher, his war record has been investigated for thirty years, and these claims, while not going away, have failed for thrity years to be verified.

	20-08-2004 11:29									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But you have to admit that Kerry running for president and touting his war record have given a lot of people incentive to conduct a more "thorough" review.

Don't you think that the office of the President and the Secreatary of the Navy had far more resources available to them on this in the early 70s, when Kerry was initially making his claims. If there was any truth to these rumors, don't you think Nixon would have exposed him? Why did all these guys wait until 2004, to say that Kerry made all this stuff up instead of doing it in 1971, when Nixon was investigating him?

There's a lot of smoke, but only cuz someone threw a stink bomb.

	20-08-2004 11:29									#101
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Who was invesitgating Kerry's war record? Was he significant enough that enough people would be turning over the right rocks?

	20-08-2004 11:40									#102
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Who was invesitgating Kerry's war record? Was he significant enough that enough people would be turning over the right rocks?

Well, if you'd read my earlier post you'd know that the people investigating Kerry were: the President of the United States (Nixon) and the Secretary of the Navy (Warner). I don't know about you, but if I think that the POSTUS and the SotN had enough clout that people would be turning over the right rocks. This was a year before Watergate, and well before that scandal crippled his effectiveness as POTUS. If there were anything to find, Nixon would have found it.

	20-08-2004 11:44									#103
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The reason I don't really believe Kerry, and can fully believe that he is a scum bag just like the next guy...

Real vets of real **** who really feel bad about what happened and who feel really bad about what they did don't turn their experiences into a campaign for higher office. They hang their heads, and if they ever say anything they say it quietly, and that's if they never did anything wrong.

His 'I'm Kerry, and I'm reporting for duty' was among the most pathetic things I've ever seen, and I've watched American and Canadian politics for a bit so I have a sense of pathetic when I see it.

This guy is a douch bag, plain and simple. The only reason he has even a glimmer of a hope in this race is that the other guy has been showing himself to be a greater evil, probably. I'm not sure if the evil that is unknown is going to be better or worse than the evil that is known. I really hope Congress goes the other way so that the US has an actual opposition to the winner of this slime fest.

A lot's at stake, for more than just Americans, so I hope it turns out alright, but God-damned you people really haveta shoot some jolt into your party system.... please?

	20-08-2004 11:45									#104
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, if you'd read my earlier post you'd know that the people investigating Kerry were: the President of the United States (Nixon) and the Secretary of the Navy (Warner). I don't know about you, but if I think that the POSTUS and the SotN had enough clout that people would be turning over the right rocks. This was a year before Watergate, and well before that scandal crippled his effectiveness as POTUS. If there were anything to find, Nixon would have found it.

And your asking V vets to 'trust' the nice guys from the government...

Didn't you say something about that just a little while ago?

	20-08-2004 11:54									#105
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** first message deleted ** Thought Ned had posted something so I was responding to him. Didn't realise it was the troll who ain't worth feeding.

Last edited by Tingkai on 20-08-2004 at 12:03

	20-08-2004 11:58									#106
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Uhhhh, the guy who might have lied on his time slip might look better than the guy who lied about greasing kids... but maybe that's just me.

** First message edited. ** Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Last edited by notyoueither on 20-08-2004 at 13:10

	20-08-2004 12:03									#107
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And again, the damage to Bush has already been done. The people who went on the witch hunt for Bush some time ago are the real culprits here. Vietnam should be gone and forgotten, except...

People keep bringing it up. You can't expect Kerry to go with superficial inspection after what was going on with Bush not so long ago. Whoever did Bush assured that whoever came out of the Dems had better have been squeeky clean. That's called fair ball.

	20-08-2004 12:07									#108
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And your asking V vets to 'trust' the nice guys from the government... Didn't you say something about that just a little while ago?

But these are Vets who supposedly trusted and supported the government, were offended by Kerry's remarks, and still didn't contradict him (other than O'Neal).

As for Vets who felt bad about what they did still hanging their head 30-40 years later, not all did. I know several Vets who took their shame at what they did and turned it to anger at the government for putting them in that situation. Kerry, apparently, is one of those. He helped end the war, and that makes him a hero.

	20-08-2004 12:09									#109
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... and then there's Kerry himself, wrapping himself in vets. He himself made it an issue. Pretty stupid of him to do that if he wasn't sure what the people who served with and around him would have to say on it.

Maybe he thinks the electorate is so polarized it just won't make a difference though.

	20-08-2004 12:12									#110
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And again, the damage to Bush has already been done.

Not really. The press bent over backwards to prove the Bush didn't go AWOL or desert. Anytime the Prez released some records, they acted satisfied, even though nothing Bush has released to date proves he was on base those last few months. The media has been pretty afraid to touch Bush on this issue, outside of actual liberal media like Salon.

	20-08-2004 12:13									#111
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Uhhhh, the guy who might have lied on his time slip might look better than the guy who lied about greasing kids... but maybe that's just me.

Yeah, because avoiding a war by using your family connections and instituting another war in which you send young men and women to go abroad and die for your country (something you were reluctant to do yourself) really covers Bushbaby in glory and makes him look so peachy clean.

	20-08-2004 12:13									#112
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But these are Vets who supposedly trusted and supported the government, were offended by Kerry's remarks, and still didn't contradict him (other than O'Neal). As for Vets who felt bad about what they did still hanging their head 30-40 years later, not all did. I know several Vets who took their shame at what they did and turned it to anger at the government for putting them in that situation. Kerry, apparently, is one of those. He helped end the war, and that makes him a hero.

You think that college kids had more reason to distrust the government than vets after the debacle of Vietnam? I wouldn't want to put money on either option, to be honest. That was one FUBAR situation.

We will have to differ about 'heros' in the US causing the loss of a war your military had won seven ways to Sunday in the field. 'Betrayal' would be the word I would use. Your nation sent them off to fight and die, and then promptly defeated itself in your own livingrooms via the editorial pages and news broadcasts.

	20-08-2004 12:14									#113
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Pretty stupid of him to do that if he wasn't sure what the people who served with and around him would have to say on it.

The press is giving this story serious scrutiny and pointing out the contradictions (like Thrulow and Warner). I think that if it isn't true, then Kerry figured his critics haven't been able to hurt him in the last 30 years, they aren't going to do so now.

	20-08-2004 12:15									#114
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all i can say is that the bush campaign has mastered the art of misdirection.

all the attention goes to a conflict that ended almost 30 years ago while the mistakes that have been made by the bush admin the past four years on domestic as well as foreign policy slip by unnoticed...

	20-08-2004 12:18									#115
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Yeah, because avoiding a war by using your family connections and instituting another war in which you send young men and women to go abroad and die for your country (something you were reluctant to do yourself) really covers Bushbaby in glory and makes him look so peachy clean.

You know, I've never understood the Chickenhawk argument, and I suspect most people don't give a ****.

You may or may not serve under fire. You may or may not be a leader when it is time to start firing.

That line of argument has it that only vets can be leaders of nations at any time, because the firing might break out.

Critics of Bush might like it, and it might thrill you to get the jab in, but it's pure and simple BS. Nobody really cares, I think.

	20-08-2004 12:20									#116
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You think that college kids had more reason to distrust the government than vets after the debacle of Vietnam?

Vietnam vets were largest single group in the antiwar movement. Nonetheless, a large number of vets still supported the war and the government when they returned home. O'Neal, who is one of Kerry's critics, is one of those people.

quote: We will have to differ about 'heros' in the US causing the loss of a war your military had won seven ways to Sunday in the field.

That's a myth. South Vietnam was crumbling around us. The only way we could stave off the inevitable collapse was to remain in Vietnam forever. Furthermore, the military was losing more control over its own soliders, with strikes and fraggings, etc. While the U.S. wasn't as close to revolution as many people (including the government) thought it was back then, the longer we stayed in Vietnam, the closer we got to it. There is no way we could have won that war. We only could have lost it later on.

	20-08-2004 12:21									#117
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You know, I've never understood the Chickenhawk argument, and I suspect most people don't give a ****.

The chickenhawk argument is that people who manipualted the system to get out of a way they supported politically are hypocrites, and hypocrites should not be given political office. Honestly opposing the war is preferable to supporting it, but then getting out of serving because you have a pimple on your ass (Rush) or you have "better things to do. (Cheney)"

	20-08-2004 12:27									#118
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither ...look better than the guy who lied about greasing kids... but maybe that's just me.

Sorry to ask, but how many children is Kerry supposed to have 'greased' and how exactly?


Did he order the greasing, or do it himself?

Or is this speculation on your part?

	20-08-2004 12:29									#119
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He is accused of having shot a Vietcong soldier who was unarmed and running away. He claims the man had an RPG and was preparing to fire.

	20-08-2004 12:34									#120
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He is accused of having shot a Vietcong soldier who was unarmed and running away. He claims the man had an RPG and was preparing to fire.

So we're not talking My Lai here?


'Cos that what it sounds like from nye's post.