26-08-2004 23:15									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ignore them as did Johnson and multiply our casualties 2-3 fold?

Just as many soldiers died under Nixon as Johnson, and there were less U.S. soldiers in Vietnam at the time. Obviously, the bombing of Cambodia had no oto little effect.

	26-08-2004 23:17									#452
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Swifties remain steadfast in their assertions (truthful or otherwise). No mention that Thurlow has backed off in the least.

Assuming by steadfast you mean, only the last few months and not what many of them had said previously praising Kerry.

So I take it Thurlow, not being a hypocrite, is returning his bronze star for bravery under fire?

	26-08-2004 23:20									#453
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Stadfast as in having their feet held to the fire via intense scrutiny to give their honest opinion as opposed to on offhand politcally correct nonoffensive one, then yes.

	26-08-2004 23:21									#454
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Why don't you or the press ask him? My guess is he would.

	26-08-2004 23:21									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Che I just have to ask this question. How do you know so much when you were only 3 years old when we removed the last of our troop from Vietnam?

We removed our last troops in 1971?

	26-08-2004 23:32									#456
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Molly is flattly saying that we went to Cambodia to kill civilians, not NVA.

While I think Ned is definetly minimalizing the collateral damage, it was just that, collateral not intentional. Molly is definetly magnifying the damage out of all rational means. And just so you know B-52's, while not scalples, are not as inaccurate as you think. They do destroy large areas, but almost always the swath they mean to destory. And since you like to talk so much about refungees, that is probobly where the majority of the nonexistant 600,000 deaths ended up. Not dead, but refugees.

And while you are right, SOME US rual areas are less dense than Cambodia, East Camboduia is still very remote and underpopullated. You could kill every man woman and child In the bombed areas, minus your two million refugees, and you still won't get 600,000.

	26-08-2004 23:36									#457
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Just as many soldiers died under Nixon as Johnson, and there were less U.S. soldiers in Vietnam at the time. Obviously, the bombing of Cambodia had no oto little effect.

So, you would have done nothing! NOTHING about the commie bases in Cambodia?

Ask any veteran who served in Vietnam about those bases and further ask who they appreciated more, Johnson who told everyone to never mention that they existed and Nixon who destroyed them?

I have seen reports that show that casualty rates were halved after Nixon drove the commies away from the border. Halved!

Are you an American? Are you an AMERICAN???

	26-08-2004 23:43									#458
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Molly is flattly saying that we went to Cambodia to kill civilians, not NVA.

Wrong, we are saying that the military didn't give a rat's ass that non-combatant civilians would be killed. Each B-52 destroyed an area 1.5 miles long by .5 miles wide. Not all sorties were by B-52, but still, when you add it up, that's thousands of square miles that were devestated by bombing.

From March to May, 1970, B-52s flew 3,630 sorties over Cambodia. In 1970 and 1971, the U.S. and SV flew a combined total of 85,000 sorties over Cambodia, 61,000 in 1971 alone. When the bombing stopped, Aug. 15, 1973, the U.S. had officially dropped 257,465 tons of bombs on Cambodia.

Some people would have us believe that all of those sorties and all of those bombs only hit and killed 11,000 Vietnamese soldiers.

	26-08-2004 23:43									#459
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quote: Originally posted by Ned So, you would have done nothing! NOTHING about the commie bases in Cambodia? Ask any veteran who served in Vietnam about those bases and further ask who they appreciated more, Johnson who told everyone to never mention that they existed and Nixon who destroyed them? I have seen reports that show that casualty rates were halved after Nixon drove the commies away from the border. Halved! Are you an American? Are you an AMERICAN???

Wow, I live in Toronto and I think I got hit by some of the spittle coming out of Ned's mouth on that last tirade!

	26-08-2004 23:44									#460
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The latest news is that Bush will ask McCain to take legal action against the 527's. If this is not successful, he wants emergency legislation.

Kerry in the meantime is calling for a criminal probe of Bush. Kerry has gone way to far in his "defense" of these charges. Way too far.

	26-08-2004 23:46									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Are you an American? Are you an AMERICAN???

Apparently not to people like you. Only right wingers who only believe what the military tells them and what right-wing Presidnents tell them are real Americans. The other 60% of the American public apparently aren't Americans.

So, you're trying to tell me that 2/3rds of all American casualties under Nixon occured in the two years before the invasion of Cambodia? It's definately possible. Might also be because we no longer had half a million Americans in SV, and so there weren't as many to kill.



Lemme see what I can find.

	26-08-2004 23:49									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The latest news is that Bush will ask McCain to take legal action against the 527's.

You think McCain will lead Kerry off the Senate floor in handcuffs for his blatant criminal acts wrt 527 contact?

	27-08-2004 00:07									#463
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"blatant criminal acts"

prove it or shut up

	27-08-2004 00:08									#464
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Read back on page 15 re: his clearly illegal contacts to SBV's.

	27-08-2004 00:13									#465
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page 15? I only have 10 pages here... I have 50 posts per page view.

But as for this thread, I've not read anything to lead me to think you have any merit with that accusation.

Bush however, has had illegal contact with 527's. One of his top lawyers resigned because of contact with those Swift Boat Lying sacks of ****.

	27-08-2004 00:16									#466
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You really need to read the threads that charge has been covered ad infinitum.

Where you been?

Its just no fun without serious Sava-izing!

	27-08-2004 00:18									#467
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I was just thinking that. Long time no see, Sava.

-Arrian

	27-08-2004 00:18									#468
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You really need to read the threads that charge has been covered ad infinitum. Where you been? Its just no fun without serious Sava-izing!

I haven't been around as much as I'd like. All this politics talk aggravates me. I can only do so much. I check in every so often just to see what everyone is yapping about.

	27-08-2004 00:18									#469
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Lemme see what I can find.

From http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html]Casualties - US vs NVA/VC

U.S. KIAs (non-hostile deaths in brackets) - Total troops - precent dead

Entire war dead
47,378 (10,824)

1961-1965 - Kennedy/Johnson
1,864 - 184300 (1965)

1966 - Johnson
5,008 (1,045) - 385300 - 1.3%

1967 - Johnson
9,378 (1,680) - 485600 - 1.9%

1968 - Johnson
14,594 (1,919) - 536100 - 2.7%

1969 - Nixon
9,414 (2,113) - 475200 - 2%

1970 - Nixon
4,221 (1,844) - 334600 - 1.3%

1971 - Nixon
1,380 (968) - 156800 - 0.8%

1972 - Nixon
300 (261) - 24200 - 1.2%

Looks like Ned was right, somewhat. The invasion of Cambodia may have had some effect on death rates. We should note, however, that the causalty ratio rose and fell with the number of soldiers in Vietnam.

So I've failed to disprove Ned's thesis that the invasion of Cambodia saved American lives. As I stated before, however, I don't think Camodians are less vaulabe than Americans, and even if we ignore the direct deaths from the bombings and resulting famine, the "law" of unintended consequences shows the deaths of two million people which resulted from the Kmher Rouge take-over, which was made possible by the American bombing. So we may have saved seven hundred American soldiers by sacrificing millions of Camodians.

Anyone who thinks that was a good trade is evil in the true sense of the word.

	27-08-2004 00:23									#470
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If the invasion of Cambodia was the only variable, maybe-the problem is that at the same time 1.the nature of the enemy was changing after the VC had been decimated in 1968 and 2. the policy of Vietnamization.

	27-08-2004 00:28									#471
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by chegitz guevara We should note, however, that the causalty ratio rose and fell with the number of soldiers in Vietnam.

But seriously for a second....

If the conflict in Iraq mirrors the Vietnam conflict, isn't this an indictment about having too many troops in harms way ala the proposal and difference Kerry espouse over the way Bush handled things?


Purely from a US casualy POV and not of the overall Iraqi governmental success.

	27-08-2004 00:31									#472
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Only if you believe that the lowest numbers of U.S. casualties is the only thing that matters (and having the force available to properly keep the peace doesn't).

But if Iraq mirrors Vietnam, it's not like this really matters 'cause we're ****ed if that's the case.

-Arrian

edit: damnit, Ogie, you DanS'd me.

	27-08-2004 00:33									#474
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During my googling, I found an number of articles which said that our current casualty numbers exceeds the first two years of the Vietnam War.

Ceterus parabus, the more troops we have in Iraq would seem to indicate that more of them would be killed or injured. Our soldiers today, however, are better trained, better lead, and better equiped. Plus, in Vietnam, the U.S. also had ARVN to help "pacify" the country. Right now, we're the only game in town.

	27-08-2004 00:38									#475
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The military nature of Iraq is fundamentally different- the opposition in Iraq is less well trained and organized than in Vietnam, and much less effectively armed in comparison to our forces. Oy firepower is greater but less indiscriminate, so probalby less friendly fire issues as well. most importantly, medical aid is superior and keeps improving.

Unless there was a massive popular revolt it is unlikely our casualties will be anywhere near vietnam levels.

	27-08-2004 00:39									#476
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Was the ARVN much better than the "security forces" we've cobbled together lately in Iraq?

Ogie - your ability to add last-second caveats is noted. This confirms your suitability for a post under my administation.

-Arrian

	27-08-2004 00:43									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Was the ARVN much better than the "security forces" we've cobbled together lately in Iraq?

No, but there were a hell of a lot more of them.

	27-08-2004 00:55									#478
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Our enemies in Vietnam were far more numerous, had better support on the ground, were better armed in comparison, and our allies were incompetent and corrupt. Yes, we have no real Iraqi security forces, but all our enemies in Iraq don't hold a candle to the VC, far less the NVA.

	27-08-2004 00:56									#479
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Lucky for us. But then again, our top leadership is dumber.

-Arrian

	27-08-2004 00:59									#480
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Yes, yes it is.