Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > John Kerry the Betrayer: Unfit to Command, part 3
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (17): [ <<   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 10:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#391 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Kerry's Band of Brothers...

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 11:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#392 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Drake, just noticed your signature. There is another statement Kerry made in the Senate I heard today. He said he was in Vietnam in '68, bullets whizzing about, when he heard the news of bullets killing Martin Luther King.

Problem is, King died in April. Kerry did not go to Vietnam for his second tour until November.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 11:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#393 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Molly, it hard for me or anyone to believe that we bombed everything that moved in Indochina just hoping that occasionally we would hit the enemy. That is ludicrous.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 11:25
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#394 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Way ahead of you, Ned.

Problem is, it's not a definitive lie. Kerry may have been off the coast of Vietnam on the U.S.S. Gridley in April, 1968. If so, he can claim to have been in Vietnam, even if the statement reeks of deception.

Still a laughable statement, though, so up it goes...

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 12:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#395 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
"Our boats didn't go north of, only slightly north of Sedek," which he said was about 50 miles from the Cambodian border.


quote:
"I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border," said John E. O'Neill


Kind of important difference being "in" Cambodia and being 50 miles away, so using the standard he's applying to Kerry, O'Neill is a liar.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 12:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#396 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You guys should really follow the news. O'Neill explained this on Hannity & Colmes. In December 1968 (when Kerry claimed to be in Cambodia), the Swift Boats didn't work any farther north on the Mekong than Sedek. The Swift Boats didn't just patrol the Mekong, though, and there was a place called Bernique's Creek near Ha Tien on the coast near the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. O'Neill claimed both he and Kerry went there, but not in December 1968. It's not clear yet whether O'Neill ever went into Cambodia, but it's also not clear that he's lying about this. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Funny that the Washington Post ran a headline accusing him of "lying" when the jury's still out, though. And by "funny" I mean "completely expected"...

edit: Had to correct my misremembering of the facts...

Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 26-08-2004 at 12:32

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 13:29
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#397 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
You guys should really follow the news. O'Neill explained this on Hannity & Colmes.


News? I saw him and he contradicted what he said to Nixon. He can't be "in" Cambodia and be near the border. Now, if he told Nixon in '71 that he had been in Cambodia and said he wasn't in Cambodia ~3 years earlier, fine... But now he's saying he was never in Cambodia.

So if both he and Kerry claim to be in Cambodia around 68-69 and O'Neill says Kerry is a liar for making that claim, then O'Neill is a liar using that same standard.

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 15:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#398 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Molly, it hard for me or anyone to believe that we bombed everything that moved in Indochina just hoping that occasionally we would hit the enemy. That is ludicrous.


Sorry Ned, old bean, but exactly what do you understand by 'CARPET' bombing?


Do you think it means dropping more bombs than were dropped on Japan in WWII on an area the size of a tasteful decorative prayer rug, perhaps, or maybe you think it implies the air force dropped vacuum cleaners, or proprietary cleaning products for floormats?


We've already seen in one quote how when they were bombing Laos, because they couldn't tell where the Pathet Lao guerillas were, they bombed existing bomb craters, or hamlets, or villages.


You can't see into dense jungle from 15 000 feet Ned.

You can't see individual guerillas from that height when they don't want to be seen, Ned.

All you're doing is the equivalent of what you've done before when faced with the necessary unpleasantries of an unethical foreign policy orchestrated by amoral individuals who hide the purpose and extent of it from Congress and the American people-

it's fingers in the ears and the blindfold on for Ned.



Must make using the p.c. darn difficult.

Oh, and Ned?

Kerry was on the U.S.S Gridley from December 1967 until June 1968. Which takes him two months past 4th April 4th 1968, when Martin Luther King was assassinated.

I note you don't provide the quote from Kerry (again) but perhaps you'd like to start saving up for a tinfoil hat, because you seem to be getting quite hysterical in your anti-Kerry fervour.

No pictures of him being dandled on Stalin's knee, or in bed with Mao in your possession yet?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 16:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#399 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Kerry was on the U.S.S Gridley from December 1967 until June 1968. Which takes him two months past 4th April 4th 1968, when Martin Luther King was assassinated.


Doesn't prove anything. The U.S.S. Gridley went all over the western Pacific on its tour, including Vietnam. We don't know if Kerry off the coast of Vietnam on April 4th, 1968 or not yet. Unless you happen to have a detailed log of where the Gridley was on that day handy...

quote:
I note you don't provide the quote from Kerry (again)


Check my signature.

Bosh is offline Bosh
Emperor
Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 16:57
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#400 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Doesn't prove anything. The U.S.S. Gridley went all over the western Pacific on its tour, including Vietnam. We don't know if Kerry off the coast of Vietnam on April 4th, 1968 or not yet. Unless you happen to have a detailed log of where the Gridley was on that day handy...

If you don't know then why the hell are you using it as an example of Kerry lying. There are plenty of real lies to go around without dredging up the could-be lies.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:01
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#401 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
If you don't know then why the hell are you using it as an example of Kerry lying.


I'm not; didn't you read my post where I said it wasn't a definitive lie? The only reason I even brought it up was because Ned mentioned it. I've passed up plenty of possible Kerry lies because there are plenty of definitive Kerry lies to harp on. This is no exception.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#402 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You guys should really follow the news. O'Neill explained this on Hannity & Colmes. In December 1968 (when Kerry claimed to be in Cambodia), the Swift Boats didn't work any farther north on the Mekong than Sedek. The Swift Boats didn't just patrol the Mekong, though, and there was a place called Bernique's Creek near Ha Tien on the coast near the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. O'Neill claimed both he and Kerry went there, but not in December 1968. It's not clear yet whether O'Neill ever went into Cambodia, but it's also not clear that he's lying about this. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Funny that the Washington Post ran a headline accusing him of "lying" when the jury's still out, though. And by "funny" I mean "completely expected"...

edit: Had to correct my misremembering of the facts...


I don't watch Fox (besides been too busy watching Olympics) but was O'Neill representing his comment about being in Cambodia to Nixon the equivalent to Kerrry saying he was in Vietnam when he heard MLK was killed. i.e. at or near Cambodia/Vietnam?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#403 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't know. I can't watch Hannity & Colmes, for obvious reasons. I just read the transcript and some other people's comments on it.

I'm waiting for more information on this one. The facts are still pretty muddled.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#404 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker


News? I saw him and he contradicted what he said to Nixon. He can't be "in" Cambodia and be near the border. Now, if he told Nixon in '71 that he had been in Cambodia and said he wasn't in Cambodia ~3 years earlier, fine... But now he's saying he was never in Cambodia.

So if both he and Kerry claim to be in Cambodia around 68-69 and O'Neill says Kerry is a liar for making that claim, then O'Neill is a liar using that same standard.


I beleive the difference you speak to is a definitional problem. For those who worked the border of cambodia they refer to themsleves as in Cambodia (were I to guess). Yet they realize, that they weren't in the legal sovereign territoty of Cambodia proper as that was a legal no-no. When O'Neill speaks of it he speaks towards border patrol. When Kerry spoke of it on the Senate floor he was definitavely speaking towards being inside soveriegn territory to emphasize the illegal actions. One speaks towards illegality of the action the other speaks to general local.

Subtle distinction. You can fault the poor choice of words, but I think O'Neill has been on message saying that he was never inside Cambodia proper.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:13
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#405 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The initial statement to Nixon is confusing in and of itself. He said he was in Cambodia, then he said he was on the border in his next breath. Which is it?

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#406 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I agree I think it poor choice of words as I indicated. Being near in proximity to Camboida become conflated with being "in" Cambodia.

Except, in the context used by Kerry, where it was a definitive, "I was in Cambodia (proper)" to emphasize illegal war times acts. Since it was not illegal to be on the border but was indeed illegal to be "in" Cambodia, the real meaning is clear that Kerry claims to be "in" Cambodia per his Senatorial statements.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#407 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Kerry also claimed to be 5 miles into Cambodia on Christmas on one occasion. I think it was the Apocalypse Now story.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#408 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

There have been 50 some odd tellings, so I'm sure the details vary much as his positions on anything do. (Seems he has a problem with positions whether it be a political position or physical one )

Maybe he should come out with a new book "The Kerry Sutra?"

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#409 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Boshko

If you don't know then why the hell are you using it as an example of Kerry lying. There are plenty of real lies to go around without dredging up the could-be lies.


I believe there's a similar phenomenon called a 'circle jerk', although I suspect there's usually a point to that....

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#410 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What happened to the smart-ass "tinfoil-hat" comments, Molly?

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#411 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The point usually being defined by the OP perhaps?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#412 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Maybe he should come out with a new book "The Kerry Sutra?"


molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#413 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
What happened to the smart-ass "tinfoil-hat" comments, Molly?


You have yet to come up with anything as hysterically funny as Ned's comments and claims.


Shouldn't take long though, so keep recycling your tinfoil.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 17:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#414 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ned's claim seemed to be sufficiently backed up to me, given that I'm displaying the quote and all. Someone owes him an apology...

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 18:10
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#415 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Ned's claim seemed to be sufficiently backed up to me, given that I'm displaying the quote and all. Someone owes him an apology...


Apologize for what exactly?


For pointing out to Ned that Kerry was on a tour of duty from December 1967 to June 1968, and that his implication that Kerry wasn't in Viet Nam (or presumably its territorial waters) in April of 1968 is just so much speculative whimsy on his part?


Notice too he adds the colourful embellishment 'bullets whizzing about' - don't see that in your new signature, do you?


If you read what I wrote more carefully too, you'll note I say 'Ned's comments and claims'- plural.

I'm not restricting myself to his remarks concerning Kerry and the date of Martin Luther King's assassination- there's a few other ripe remarks through this thread where his assumption of the ostrich position had me holding my sides, choking back laughs.

I don't say that Ned is claiming positively that Kerry wasn't there, since you haven't supplied him with sufficient information to do so, but he is implying that Kerry's lying.

And since you don't know whether or not Kerry is, or whether Kerry was in Manila, or Tokyo on April 4th 1968, and Ned's quoting you (the circle jerk in action), it's all so much baloney.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 18:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#416 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Apologize for what exactly?


Accusing him of engaging in "tinfoil-hat" conspiracy theories when he's talking about a Kerry claim that very much exists?

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 18:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#417 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

In reality I give the nod to Molly's points regarding Cambodian unintended collateral damage ie. civilian casualties from B52 carpet bombings

OTOH, I find it a complete nonsequitor in relation to the OP. Excepting it is clearly and patently false for Kerry to attempt to lay at the feet of Nixon the illegality of his actions of Cambodia circa Xmas 1968 when Nixon had yet to assume office.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 18:17
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#418 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
In reality I give the nod to Molly's points regarding Cambodian unintended collateral damage ie. civilian casualties from B52 carpet bombings


I wouldn't know. I have no interest in reading arguments that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 18:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#419 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Agreed hence the reason it was IMO a threadjack of minor import.

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
  Old Post 26-08-2004 18:27
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#420 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
Apologize for what exactly?


Accusing him of engaging in "tinfoil-hat" conspiracy theories when he's talking about a Kerry claim that very much exists?


Please quote me where I accuse Ned of engaging in tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

 
Pages (17): [ <<   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:33.
Apolyton Time is 00:33.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0659 seconds (89.46% PHP - 10.54% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net