25-08-2004 21:50									#1
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I want to play.

	25-08-2004 22:22									#2
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Me too.

Let's change the OoB rules back and bring in a "no using and training spies in the same turn" rule, though.

	25-08-2004 22:47									#3
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That last rule need only apply when there are only 2 players. in.

	25-08-2004 22:47									#4
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Surely you can't build and use in the same turn. That was slack GMing if so. If you mean building a new spy whilst using an old one, that is a fair strategy and should stay.

In btw.

	25-08-2004 22:54									#5
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With 2 people though it can lead to an infinite loop when only one person has spies. This allowed me to use essentially use spies as continuous shielding against Joncha. See the last few rounds of the last game.

	25-08-2004 22:55									#6
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Let's change the OoB rules back and bring in a "no using and training spies in the same turn" rule, though.

Yes. And yes.

	25-08-2004 22:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley With 2 people though it can lead to an infinite loop when only one person has spies. This allowed me to use essentially use spies as continuous shielding against Joncha. See the last few rounds of the last game.

So how was it resolved?

	25-08-2004 23:39									#8
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I'll play, though I don't know the rules.

	25-08-2004 23:43									#9
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It was 2AM, we were tired, we decided to end it honorably, lasertitans at 10 paces, taking turns attacking each other with everything.

	25-08-2004 23:43									#10
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in

	25-08-2004 23:58									#11
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I might GM.

How about you can only train one spy per turn and it costs 5 bp?

Else if somebody else volunteers, I'll play.

	26-08-2004 00:01									#12
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Oh and I say no fleet loans, but alliance attacks are still okay.

	26-08-2004 01:05									#13
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I want in.

	26-08-2004 02:10									#14
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It's already maximum one spy per turn.

	26-08-2004 02:30									#15
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Yeah, but they don't cost bp right now. Thinking that shields should cost bp too.

	26-08-2004 04:40									#16
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Spies costing BPs would not have changed the situation in the last game. Would cost be scaled with empire size?

	26-08-2004 05:32									#17
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Perhaps we should just use an additional rule that when we are down to 2 players, they both just supply OOBs and shipping for that turn then both fight to the death.

I don't think spies or shields should cost BPs. There is already a limitting factor on their production.

In btw.

	26-08-2004 08:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy Oh and I say no fleet loans, but alliance attacks are still okay.

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Perhaps we should just use an additional rule that when we are down to 2 players, they both just supply OOBs and shipping for that turn then both fight to the death.

Yes to both of these, too.

	26-08-2004 08:55									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Perhaps we should just use an additional rule that when we are down to 2 players, they both just supply OOBs and shipping for that turn then both fight to the death.

Yes.

	26-08-2004 11:57									#21
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In, btw.

As for the OOB rules - I'd be happy to go back to the old system, although I did like the mid-combat adjustments; the only problem was the restrictions on how you could arrange your OOB. However, it does require a lot of extra calculations for the GM, so I'd understand if Spaced or whoever is GMing this time wanted to dispense with it.

	26-08-2004 14:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Perhaps we should just use an additional rule that when we are down to 2 players, they both just supply OOBs and shipping for that turn then both fight to the death.

That's the worst solution proposed. If someone has the ability and desire to wait a few turns before fighting then they should be able to.

Even just banning training and use on the same turn is better.

	26-08-2004 18:48									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike That's the worst solution proposed. If someone has the ability and desire to wait a few turns before fighting then they should be able to. Even just banning training and use on the same turn is better.

I agree with this. Say you have 3 players left. P1 attacks P2 while P3 remains idle. P1 wins, but is left with half his fleet. He now has more BP than P3, but less ships. Smartly, he had a couple of spies or shields stored such that he can recover while he uses his BP to build a killer fleet.

The proposed solution does not reward agressive play.

	26-08-2004 19:48									#24
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The lowest-impact solution would be to ban training and using spies on the same turn when there are only 2 players in the game. Or, have spies sent at each other cancel each others' orders. Now that I think about it, this is exactly what happened in the first game.

	26-08-2004 20:31									#25
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Well that's besides the point. If you have 1 spy and I have 2, and we both send them to sabotage whilst building a spy each, we end the turn with no spies for you (both builds was sabotaged) and 1 for me. Then I can ensure you never build one, and attack you when ready.

If the group decides this is a problem, then it also makes sense not to limit the change to when 2 players are left. GT and I used a form of the spy trick last game in beating Geo.

	26-08-2004 20:45									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

When there are 2 people sending spies against 1 though, it's not a trick, it's a strategy. It is only when there are only 2 players left in the game that it can go into an infinite loop like the one I got Joncha in.

	26-08-2004 21:12									#27
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The solution is to make use spy only an option if you attack or shield, that is, you cannot train and use a spy on the same turn.

	26-08-2004 22:05									#28
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Yes. That is by far the more elegant solution.

	26-08-2004 22:13									#29
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Indeed so, and gets my vote.

	27-08-2004 01:14									#30
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Well, it used to be a rule in the first two games.

You could only train a spy if you didn't use one that turn.