01-09-2004 19:25									#1
	Rugby - Autumn Beckons! Got spare money?

Did anyone see Otago get creamed by Canterbury?

The Currie cup game - Blue Bulls v Sharks - was better. It was action packed, but the Sharks had a woeful second half after trailing by one point at the break.

	02-09-2004 02:35									#2
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No, I am only looking at Rugby these days.

I had plenty of ideas about a new name for our thread...

	02-09-2004 05:30									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin No, I am only looking at Rugby these days.

You mean crap rugby? The way Toulouse is playing it?

quote: I had plenty of ideas about a new name for our thread...

How about? Rugby - How Appropriate That Toulouse Sounds A Bit Like To Lose!

quote: Reading the text of his press conference it seems VERY likely he knew. The essence was "no rift with Clive, great respect for him, will succeed in all he does *wherever that might be*" Didn't ring any alarms at the time but looking back...

Yup. That's what I reckon. The latest reports seem to be a little more vague. That Clive hasn't yet handed in his resignation. I can't imagine any backing down at this stage. And I liked John Connolly's comment re Clive's s***** coaching aspirations: "It's someone with their ego out of control".

Oh, and just for the record, because I know none of us are ashamed of the amount of time we spend nattering about rugby, up until the commencement of this thread, including our wee temporary version of this thread, we have, between us, posted

10, 356

times since we started our dedicated rugby threads!

	02-09-2004 05:33									#4
	Re: Rugby - Autumn Beckons! Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Did anyone see Otago get creamed by Canterbury? The Currie cup game - Blue Bulls v Sharks - was better. It was action packed, but the Sharks had a woeful second half after trailing by one point at the break.

The NPC is on FoxSports here at around midnight. I'm yet to watch a match. I should.

	02-09-2004 05:45									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Mmm. Harkening back to some of the Dally/Clive comments, some of them come as a bit of a surprise:-

[D] I'm unsure whether we have the right structure to allow our players to be successful,"
"The World Cup was a little bit of a one-off."
"Playing internationals while trying to run a domestic competition and the way the season runs until May before some players then have to go on tour are not conducive to career longevity.

I'm not so sure what he's talking about with the structure comment. It seemed to be very successful in the short term but it was never going to be possible to sustain it over a longer period. As I see it they threw a large quantity of cash at it, kept their multi-million-dollar team together for much of the domestic season, club commitments regardless, and worked up (successfully as it turned out) to their WC goal. It wasn't so much a one-off as the end result of a long and fairly well-planned campaign, and, seen as such (ie: the end) it was very successful. I'm not sure they have enough time left to do the same thing again in time for 2007 but, given the same funding, they could certainly begin planning for 2011.
Dally's entirely correct about the domestic/international competition bit, but then that's the same dilemma facing every nation.


[C] "I love football and I go to as many games as I possibly can. I never had that passion for rugby I have for football. I never got into rugby in the same way."
"I was forced into playing rugby, because that's the only game the school played. And I hated it. I ran away a couple of times because of football. I didn't mind being at boarding school. I just hated not playing football."



Burning bridges with a 25Mton thermonuke?
That or he may well be in line for a 'relaxing stress-relief vacation' at a psy..,er, 'secluded resort', after which he'll be back as the national coach with a new 'found' enthusiasm?

That aside though, he's saying all of the right things to get into the soccer world, although I doubt he'd rise to the same heights. He may be taken on as an assistant coach I suppose, with regard to some of his coaching 'techniques', but just how useful would he be?
The soccer world already has more than its fair share of ex-players/coaches without looking to other sports.
When Michael J. went to baseball he did serve for a season as a passable player but was never able to rise to anywhere near the same heights and he was regarded as one of those 'once-in-a-generation' athletes.


Oh and can I say that I'm honoured to have the 10361st post?

	02-09-2004 09:18									#6
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Oh and can I say that I'm honoured to have the 10361st post?

Kiwi arithmetic, huh?

While I'm sure Clive genuinely believes everything he's saying about those organisational problems - who in their right mind would disagree? - I think it's all a bit of a smokescreen. He wants out. He knows it's not going to get any better than the WRC win, at least not for quite a while, with pain along the way, and I don't think he's prepared to hack it.

Equally, he's a person whose ego makes him an easy person to dislike. Or even hate. You can be damn sure that, whenever he trips across to s*****, if he does, there will be a poultice of people doing their damndest to stop him getting wherever he wants to go. He, of course, would be blind to that. People with egos such as his usually are.

	02-09-2004 13:51									#7
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quote: How about? Rugby - How Appropriate That Toulouse Sounds A Bit Like To Lose!

All those creative juices flowing just to arrive at a chant thrown at them every time they play an English club here. “You are going Toulouse”. I first heard this seven seasons ago. You just can’t get the writers these days?

quote: I can't imagine any backing down at this stage

The delay is over the contract the RFU gave him – I think you will find it entitles him to a nice package even if he walks and the lawyers are fighting it out.

I am glad Connelly agrees with me.

quote: I'm not so sure what he's talking about with the structure comment. It seemed to be very successful in the short term but it was never going to be possible to sustain it over a longer period.

I see your confusion. He was not talking about the structure of Team England at all but rather the structure of our domestic game and the way it interacts with the English side. The national side has been successful – but the clubs have been badly burnt.

I’m not sure why you think it cannot work again – or why it can’t work for 2007. After all the Boks came from absolutely rock bottom this year and still kicked AB butt. That’s sport for you.

And incidentally whilst England have spent more what system is it you believe NZ use? They throw money at the ABs – as much as they can raise from TV money and sponsorship – exactly like England do with our side.

quote: Dally's entirely correct about the domestic/international competition bit, but then that's the same dilemma facing every nation.

No it isn’t – not to the same level at least. Our Premiership players play far more rugby than their NPC equivalents. We have domestic players never picked for the national side who play more first class games a year than any two ABs put together – that is what Dally was referencing. Our season lasts nine months with very few rest weeks – our clubs continue to play when England does - does anywhere else match that? At the end of those nine months the senior side tours like sacrificial lambs to the slaughter and end up with maybe four weeks off before the new season. Who does it help?

quote: Burning bridges with a 25Mton thermonuke?

Strangely enough I have been thinking about that secluded resort for him too.

And yes soccer thrives on b******t so he is playing the right game.

But the man is a former Tigers, England and Lions Centre – are we really to believe he has hated the game he has been involved in for over 30 years? It lacks any credibility at all!

quote: He, of course, would be blind to that. People with egos such as his usually are.

I’m actually quite looking forward to a new era. All the Clive favourites will now need to get in on merit and the door may finally be opened to the youths we have oft discussed.

With Rob Andrew ruling himself out he seems almost bound to get the job. But Nigel Melville (Glaws, formerly Wasps) must have a chance. What a shame Richards blew it with Tigers – 12 months ago he would have been automatic choice. Englands loss is Grenobles gain.

	02-09-2004 16:57									#8
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It is all getting very confusing. The BBC is now reporting this:

Woodward is thought to want to remain in charge for the Autumn internationals against Canada, South Africa and Australia and then hand over the reins to his successor in time for the 2005 Six Nations.

His early exit would allow him to concentrate on next summer's Lions tour to New Zealand, which he has been asked to oversee, before completing a switch to football.

But even that chain of events is in doubt after Lions chief executive John Feehan told the London Evening Standard: "If something came up which interfered with (his) ability to do his job with the Lions properly, we would have to consider it.

"Clive's preparation has been second to none to date and we are very happy with what he has put in place. The only thing which could affect his position is if he accepted another position which took up the bulk of his time."

	02-09-2004 18:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It is all getting very confusing. The BBC is now reporting this: Woodward is thought to want to remain in charge for the Autumn internationals against Canada, South Africa and Australia and then hand over the reins to his successor in time for the 2005 Six Nations. His early exit would allow him to concentrate on next summer's Lions tour to New Zealand, which he has been asked to oversee, before completing a switch to football. But even that chain of events is in doubt after Lions chief executive John Feehan told the London Evening Standard: "If something came up which interfered with (his) ability to do his job with the Lions properly, we would have to consider it. "Clive's preparation has been second to none to date and we are very happy with what he has put in place. The only thing which could affect his position is if he accepted another position which took up the bulk of his time."

It's all getting very bizarre. First, he was reported, leaving the meeting, saying he was quitting. Next, he said he hadn't quit, and that his lawyers were talking to the RFU. I wonder if it was a fiscal/legal thing. If he quit, breaking his contract, his pay out was less. Therfore he couldn't be seen to be quitting. Therefore he retracted his earlier position.

After everything that he's said, I can't imagine the Union wanting him coaching again. Can you?

	02-09-2004 18:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Havak All those creative juices flowing just to arrive at a chant thrown at them every time they play an English club here. “You are going Toulouse”. I first heard this seven seasons ago. You just can’t get the writers these days?

I'll sue the pr*cks for plagiarism.

quote: No it isn’t – not to the same level at least. Our Premiership players play far more rugby than their NPC equivalents.

No one plays as much rugby as the English players.

quote: But the man is a former Tigers, England and Lions Centre – are we really to believe he has hated the game he has been involved in for over 30 years? It lacks any credibility at all!

Clive? Played for Leicester?

quote: With Rob Andrew ruling himself out he seems almost bound to get the job. But Nigel Melville (Glaws, formerly Wasps) must have a chance. What a shame Richards blew it with Tigers – 12 months ago he would have been automatic choice. Englands loss is Grenobles gain.

Someone called Andy Robinson was mentioned as a possibility in this morning's paper. Who's he?

	02-09-2004 18:28									#11
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quote: After everything that he's said, I can't imagine the Union wanting him coaching again. Can you?

This may be the key to the bizarreness. The RFU will certainly now want him gone ASAP – but he seems to want to serve a ‘notice’ period (as you say probably pay-off related).

quote: I'll sue the pr*cks for plagiarism.

Address the legal papers to “The Members, Welford Road”.

quote: No one plays as much rugby as the English players.

And that is a problem we must address.

quote: Clive? Played for Leicester?

He certainly did. Have I never mentioned it before?

quote: Someone called Andy Robinson was mentioned as a possibility in this morning's paper. Who's he?

Clive’s deputy. Holds Mitchell’s former job of forwards coach. Nice bloke. Untested as a head coach. Except at Bath where he helmed two table propping seasons before Foley came in (and did the same).

A conservative choice – and perhaps also an unlikely one.

	02-09-2004 18:45									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Havak He certainly did. Have I never mentioned it before?

You kept it very quiet! I honestly didn't know.

quote: Clive’s deputy. Holds Mitchell’s former job of forwards coach. Nice bloke. Untested as a head coach. Except at Bath where he helmed two table propping seasons before Foley came in (and did the same).

I'm sure M. Foley is itching to do the job! Eddie expressed some disbelief at Clive's plans. After which a journo asked Eddie if he was thinking of challenging Frank Farina - Australian s***** coach - for his job. "Nah, Frank's safe", said Eddie.

	03-09-2004 11:12									#13
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So Clive has gone. Full stop. Final. Appropriate under the circumstances, I'd've thought. He's still in charge of the Lions tour, but reading between the lines of the Lions' boss' comments, I suspect he wouldn't be surprised - or terribly disappointed - if Clive quit that job too. So how long will A. Robinson hold the job? Talk about a poisoned chalice. In the medium term, anyway.

	03-09-2004 12:46									#14
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quote: You kept it very quiet! I honestly didn't know.

I cannot imagine why I didn’t shout about it earlier. Except I perhaps didn’t think you needed another stick to beat me with?

quote: "Nah, Frank's safe", said Eddie.

At times one has to like Eddie.

Only Clive Woodward and Rupert Lowe seem to think this is a sensible move. My own take on it is we should grasp the opportunity to clean house from the bottom up.

If Clive takes a job in soccer before the Lions tour expect to hear of his sacking as coach for that (the Irish coach would then step in as Clive pipped him to selection).

quote: So how long will A. Robinson hold the job? Talk about a poisoned chalice. In the medium term, anyway.

My biggest concern with Robinson is that he is damn good forwards coach – and an accomplished training ground man – but I wasn’t kidding about his time at Bath. Andy’s only time as a head coach coincided with two of Bath’s worse seasons ever. I don’t think he is the all rounder and management man needed in a head coach.
Interesting talk on Sky’s Rugby club last night – ignoring the silly praise of Clive and Dally winning the RWC (we all know who really drove that success and he only got mentioned a few times) the pundits seemed to think Dean Richards was the only pedigree candidate – but the bookies have him at 33/1.

The two Sky pundits (Stuart and Dewi) themselves are 100/1 from the job. When asked how they would do they quipped that they would do well be, bringing in a specialist coaching staff included Jonno as motivational coach.

Rob Andrew and Nigel Melville have ruled themselves out (as is traditional if you want a job?) so home grown experienced candidates are thin on the ground. Maybe Deano has a shout. Picking a foreign coach would be controversial – it is against tradition and it would also give the SH unacceptable bragging rights.

So of the top eight sides in the world Eddie is second longest serving coach – second only to Monsieur Laporte. Hard to believe it is less than a year since the RWC and England are effectively in absolute turmoil. You SH lads must be loving it.

	03-09-2004 14:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I cannot imagine why I didn’t shout about it earlier. Except I perhaps didn’t think you needed another stick to beat me with?

Yeah, typical, tell me when it's too late! Although retrospective beating-with-big-sticks can be more perverse, hence more fun ...

quote: At times one has to like Eddie.

Mmmm. A tough task-master is our Eddie, it's turning out. Roger Gould found the going a bit tough, too, apparently.

quote: If Clive takes a job in soccer before the Lions tour expect to hear of his sacking as coach for that (the Irish coach would then step in as Clive pipped him to selection).

Fingers crossed he takes a s***** job. I'm sick of the sight of him. I can't imagine he has too much rugby-supporter sympathy over there? I heard one of his mates on the Rugby board singing his praises. Is anyone else?

quote: I don’t think he is the all rounder and management man needed in a head coach.

They were Clive's strengths, presumably. I was never immensely impressed with his tactical nouse. He was so very very lucky he had J**** around. Presumably Robinson will have the job until he proves he's not up to it? Or is he known to be filling in? I wonder what the "success" criteria will be if the going is tough in November.

Actually, one good thing to come out of this - well, two, because, for me, Clive nicking off is an early Christmas present - will be to see what approach is now taken with the team. Will youth get a go? Will the pain of some losses be worn in the interests of long term gain?

quote: Interesting talk on Sky’s Rugby club last night – ignoring the silly praise of Clive and Dally winning the RWC (we all know who really drove that success and he only got mentioned a few times)

Why is that? Why do so many people like to ignore that J**** carried them to the World Cup on his back?

quote: the pundits seemed to think Dean Richards was the only pedigree candidate – but the bookies have him at 33/1.

Deano can't be out of the equation. He probably stayed where he was one season too long, but his history says he's probably the best available? Or will his one-season-too-many work against him?

quote: So of the top eight sides in the world Eddie is second longest serving coach – second only to Monsieur Laporte. Hard to believe it is less than a year since the RWC and England are effectively in absolute turmoil. You SH lads must be loving it.

I think it's the best thing that's happened to English rugby. Probably, to be honest, since Clive turned up in the first place. I'm sure he brought something to the structure and management of the group. Right man at the right time. They were the best team in the world for a period thanks to mainly solid players, one superstar and one megastar. And he marshalled them. With the megastar the one who was really running the playing show, I suspect that any number of people could have coached the team to the trophy, but that's beside the point. Problem was, he took over a team on the way up. But there was next to no evidence that he had the judgement or temperament to do the really hard job - starting if not from square one, from about square two or three. I never liked him. But his ludicrous behaviour recently is absolutely indicative of what I never liked about him. It surprises me not one jot. Anyway, in summary, providing you find the right replacement, English rugby will be immensely better off in the longer term.

	03-09-2004 19:47									#16
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quote: Although retrospective beating-with-big-sticks can be more perverse, hence more fun ...

Ah yes but now he has gone I am sure I remember always saying I didn’t rate him anyway. And I am sticking to that.

quote: I can't imagine he has too much rugby-supporter sympathy over there? I heard one of his mates on the Rugby board singing his praises. Is anyone else?

I haven’t heard anyone outside the media wish him well. He has handled it very badly and come out of it looking very foolish. None of which has been helped by him launching both barrels at the RFU and the clubs this morning. They didn’t give him what he wanted after the RWC – which was basically even more dedicated time with the players (almost on a centralised contract basis) where they could play for clubs only when England specifically released them.

Rattle out of pram time for the ‘ickle diddums’?

quote: Or is he known to be filling in? I wonder what the "success" criteria will be if the going is tough in November.

It has been made clear he is ‘acting up’. If he wants it permanently he will have to apply.

Nothing less than three wins in the autumn will be seen as successful. We like to build them up to knock them down over here remember.

Fingers crossed youth gets a go – and that some growing pain is accepted.

quote: Why is that? Why do so many people like to ignore that J**** carried them to the World Cup on his back?

Again not one rugger fan I have ever spoken to personally has made that mistake. You do see it in the media. There are numerous pundits that are former Bath men and believe me that does influence such things.

But the chief factor is very straight forward – Martin does not blow his own trumpet in front of cameras or press – both other men do so constantly. Simple as that.

quote: Or will his one-season-too-many work against him?

That may not – but the bad blood with Tigers since will not have helped him (he demanded via legal channels that the Deanos bar in our ground be renamed and that all his playing memorabilia be taken off display and returned).

This may well blot his copy book with the RFU men who are VERY old school.

quote: Anyway, in summary, providing you find the right replacement, English rugby will be immensely better off in the longer term.

I have to agree. This week has destroyed any respect I had for him.

Our season starts on Sunday – an away league game at Sale 12 Noon – live on Sky. No dining out for me this week. And here is hoping Ellis does not nut Hanley again.
It’s already starting – Wells has named an expanded squad for the game because no less than five of our loose forwards are carrying varying degrees of injury – Backys hamstring being the worst.

Home to Leeds a week tomorrow and Tim Stimpson returns to Welford Road to play against us. That will be strange for me.

	04-09-2004 03:04									#17
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quote: Originally posted by finbar How about? Rugby - How Appropriate That Toulouse Sounds A Bit Like To Lose!

That's not funny.

Havak is right, I can hear this rengaine (I would like Finbar to play with his "petit Ophrys") from the Almost United Kingdoms supporters since the first H-Cup games. Needless to say that the said supporters often went back home with their tails between the legs.

The Stade Toulousain will play this afternoon against a newly promoted team, the old Aviron Bayonnais... this will give me the opportunity to evaluate the extent of the current illness.

	04-09-2004 17:56									#18
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quote: That's not funny.

Be honest; It is, the first time. It probably gets on your nerves the thousand and thirty seventh time, though.
The fact that Beziers (which bet Toulouse) has just been beaten by Castres doesn't bode well for Toulouse, does it? Actually, it seemsBeziers has a good team this year.
On the other hand, Biarritz is doing well and the Stade Francais is not. So things would be worse.

	04-09-2004 18:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Be honest; It is, the first time.

I have heard it so many times that I don't mind at all, it is actually part of the traditional teasing between supporters.

quote: The fact that Beziers (which bet Toulouse) has just been beaten by Castres doesn't bode well for Toulouse, does it? Actually, it seemsBeziers has a good team this year.

What is actually bothering me is not the fact that Toulouse is loosing its first games but rather the way the team is loosing them, with no panache, bad skill and bad tactical organization ( to Finbar). Needless to speak about the strategic planning of the game, inexistent and terrible are the closest words coming to my mind.

quote: On the other hand, Biarritz is doing well and the Stade Francais is not. So things would be worse.

That is not very surprising, Biarritz' start is often good while the Stade Français' performances are rather erratic until the end of the season. Wait and see...

	05-09-2004 09:12									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Havak That may not – but the bad blood with Tigers since will not have helped him (he demanded via legal channels that the Deanos bar in our ground be renamed and that all his playing memorabilia be taken off display and returned). This may well blot his copy book with the RFU men who are VERY old school.

Well, it seems to me, from a long way away, that he's the most experienced and most successful coach at club level. Assuming that can translate at the next level, he would seem to be first choice. Current contracts nothwithstanding.

quote: It’s already starting – Wells has named an expanded squad for the game because no less than five of our loose forwards are carrying varying degrees of injury – Backys hamstring being the worst.

Before the season even begins? Something's wrong somewhere.

	05-09-2004 09:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin That's not funny.

It would be if you were winning because it would be meaningless.

quote: I can hear this rengaine (I would like Finbar to play with his "petit Ophrys")

I didn't need my petit ophrys to translate it!

	05-09-2004 09:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Be honest; It is, the first time. It probably gets on your nerves the thousand and thirty seventh time, though.

What you all have to realise is that I live in a backwater. I live, as one of our recent - and much missed - Prime Ministers described, "at the arse-end of the world". If I lived where you live - at the centre of the world - I would know these things. Unfortunately, I don't. At the moment.

	05-09-2004 09:20									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin organization ( to Finbar).

American!

	06-09-2004 06:03									#24
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A rugby weekend of mixed fortunes!

Sale 26 -d- Leicester 19. The written reports suggest a match of some quality. Whether the aesthetics were more important to Havak than the result is a different matter, of course.

Next, Toulouse apparently didn't. Tamerlin will, hopefully, be pleased.

Next, the All Blacks suffered a loss with Kees Meeuws quitting New Zealand rugby for France.

Finally, in South Africa, one club player murdered another.

Things are never dull in the rugby world.

	06-09-2004 13:16									#25
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quote: Well, it seems to me, from a long way away, that he's the most experienced and most successful coach at club level.

That is true – the next closest would be Gatland. Deano has probably been badly tainted by being sacked however – and he still remains a bookies outsider.

Woodward apologised yesterday for the tirade he launched at clubs blaming it on his temper at the press conference. Tomorrow he may launch it all over again of course. Strange guy.

quote: Before the season even begins? Something's wrong somewhere.

It’s not unusual to see a few injuries as full contract training starts before the season – but so many is a worry. It proved costly in the end – more of which later.

quote: Sale 26 -d- Leicester 19. The written reports suggest a match of some quality. Whether the aesthetics were more important to Havak than the result is a different matter, of course.

Would you care to guess?

It was a thoroughly entertaining game – though keep your fingers crossed Dave Pearson never steps up to IRB duty as he is a real ‘homer’ of a referee. Which would be fine had we been at home.

Missed tackles cost us very dearly. Two out of three Sale tries came as a direct result of them. The other came from an interception. Will Skinner had a solid game but made one or two key errors including gifting that intercept. Brett Deacon struggled a little at blindside.

On the plus side my mate Martin looked immense and fully charged. Kay looks back to a semblance of form. Rabeni only got 20 minutes but he will do well as long as the paddocks stay firm. VD is in super form I regret to inform you. Corry made a good pitch for Dally’s England shirt.

However I have to acknowledge a fit and rested Jason Robinson is not what we needed in our first game. And Sale has found a gem – a bullocking French number 8 called Chabal. If he keeps playing like he did yesterday he might get a call up from Laporte?

Leeds at Welford Road next week. They lost at home to Gloucester this weekend. We need to put them away or it could turn into another frustrating season.

*edit* I think SANZAR need to be careful not to catch the English disease of playing too many games. The move to S14 and the idea of expanding the whole tri-nations by three more games from 2006 seems to be very money driven? Not to mention how thin Aussie playing resources will be stretched trying to support a Perth based franchise?

	06-09-2004 17:45									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Havak That is true – the next closest would be Gatland. Deano has probably been badly tainted by being sacked however – and he still remains a bookies outsider.

So, if not him, who? Anyway, let's see how the incumbent replacement goes. I can't imagine there being a massive turnaround in November, even with fit and rested players. Not without a new heart and new engine room to replace You Know Who.

quote: Woodward apologised yesterday for the tirade he launched at clubs blaming it on his temper at the press conference. Tomorrow he may launch it all over again of course. Strange guy.

No. Psychotic is the word.

quote: Missed tackles cost us very dearly.

Mmmm. The English disease.

quote: On the plus side my mate Martin looked immense and fully charged.

And thoroughly enjoying himself, no doubt. No greater responsibilities to weigh him down.

quote: Kay looks back to a semblance of form.

Damning with faint praise?

quote: Rabeni only got 20 minutes but he will do well as long as the paddocks stay firm.

In an English winter?

quote: VD is in super form I regret to inform you.

I was quite enjoying your post till this point!

quote: *edit* I think SANZAR need to be careful not to catch the English disease of playing too many games. The move to S14 and the idea of expanding the whole tri-nations by three more games from 2006 seems to be very money driven? Not to mention how thin Aussie playing resources will be stretched trying to support a Perth based franchise?

It's always about money. I don't see the need for the expanded Tri-Nations, with the exception of a third Bledisloe match. I'm also not convinced of the third S12 franchise here either. I suspect we have the talent pool to support half a new franchise, not a whole new one. But we shall see.

	06-09-2004 19:26									#27
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quote: Not without a new heart and new engine room to replace You Know Who.

We can cling to the hope that being huge underdogs once again might lift us? And that just against Canada.

quote: Mmmm. The English disease.

Only in 2004.

quote: And thoroughly enjoying himself, no doubt. No greater responsibilities to weigh him down.

He didn’t look happy. In fact most of the time he was looking very unhappy as he questioned Mr Pearsons latest ‘homer’ decision.

I am sure he is enjoying the actual rugger though.

quote: Damning with faint praise?

Jury is still out – only got 50 mins on the paddock and looked okay. I’ll get a batter view next weekend when it’s in 3D.

quote: In an English winter?

Oh yes – in Jan/Feb it can be like playing on concrete. I wonder how he will cope with slushy sodden paddocks though.

quote: I was quite enjoying your post till this point!

I would say I was sorry – but honestly I am happy he seems to be on form.

quote: I'm also not convinced of the third S12 franchise here either.

Fourth franchise surely? Although I do take your point.

Saving grace of the opening round – Wasps lost to Saracens. I nearly laughed. Actually I did laugh!

	07-09-2004 06:40									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Havak He didn’t look happy. In fact most of the time he was looking very unhappy as he questioned Mr Pearsons latest ‘homer’ decision.

That's something I've missed - J****'s furious scowl and muttering and head shaking as he tramps away from the ref.

quote: Oh yes – in Jan/Feb it can be like playing on concrete. I wonder how he will cope with slushy sodden paddocks though.

He will cope. In the sense that he's played enough rugby in Kiwi winters for it not to be unfamiliar. Speed becomes fairly meaningless and ball handling skill takes over, which is the real test. In fact, the East Midlands in winter is probably tropical compared to Otago in winter.

quote: Fourth franchise surely? Although I do take your point.

Yes, fourth, sorry. Interesting article in the paper this morning about the extra franchise. One of the arguments put in its favour is that the new franchise will add to our Wallaby depth by offering opportunity for those players who might otherwise go overseas. But, when pressed on how many players currently overseas he wishes were here and available, Eddie could name only one - T. Kefu. The point being that, as I've said before, the players who nick off overseas are either (a) not Wallaby material, therefore simply seeking a better pay day; or (b) retired Wallabies seeking superannuation. So the depth argument - in terms of retaining players - is fallacious. Someone who muddies the argument somewhat is a player like Manny Edmonds. He quit the Waratahs for Perpignan because he couldn't command a regular Waratahs' spot. Because he was inconsistent. A blinder one week, unseen the next. It's arguable, perhaps, that his time with Perpignan could have made him a more consistent player. OTOH, we're not short of halves.

Of greater concern, I think, is the talk of manning the extra franchise by relaxing the rule relating to S12 players having to be Wallaby-eligible. In other words, signing up the cream of the Pacific Islanders for the new franchise. The ARU hasn't ruled out the possibility. The article theorises that the ARU might keep the option up its sleeve, waiting to see how well they can man the franchise under the existing rule. If they decide the franchise isn't strong enough, the rule could be changed to allow in, for example, the Pacific Islanders. All of which renders the argument about creating Wallaby depth completely fallacious.

One real benefit of an extra franchise would be to help develop the careers of players like Matt Henjak. There's no doubt he will replace George Gregan when he retires. But, currently, he warms the bench for the Brumbies, watching Gregan doing this thing. Playing as #1 scrum half would undoubtedly develop his game. And there are several other young players in a similar situation.

The other potential benefit of an extra franchise, of course, is taking rugby to more people, increasing its exposure. Which has to be a good thing for the game. Providing, of course, the franchise is set up properly and isn't a lemon.

So there are arguments for and against. While there's no doubt the decision is money-driven, there is at least some potential to help the Wallaby cause.

quote: Saving grace of the opening round – Wasps lost to Saracens. I nearly laughed. Actually I did laugh!

I saw that. And p*ssed myself laughing!

Oh, and I saw a very interesting documentary series the other night about the history and travails and journeys of the Cimbrians. A couple of them looked like they could tackle. You should point A. Robinson in their direction.

	07-09-2004 07:44									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by finbar Next, Toulouse apparently didn't. Tamerlin will, hopefully, be pleased.

The Stade Toulousain won something like 45 to 27 against the Aviron Bayonnais. The Toulousains alternated the good and the ugly and did not managed to keep the Bayonnais from scoring four tries. It appears like something good has finally sprouted from the Southern Hemisphere, the bonus point earned for scoring four tries was clearly instrumental in the Bayonnais' performance as they have never tried to restrict the game, they have played until the last minute in order to earn the bonus point, that which they deserve.

quote: Finally, in South Africa, one club player murdered another. Things are never dull in the rugby world.

South Africa seems to be on the forefront as soon as innovative behavior is concerned. :

quote: American!

quote: ... a bullocking French number 8 called Chabal. If he keeps playing like he did yesterday he might get a call up from Laporte

Sébastien Chabal has already played in the French team and he is a very good player but the competition is very strong at this place.

	08-09-2004 03:42									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin The Stade Toulousain won something like 45 to 27 against the Aviron Bayonnais. The Toulousains alternated the good and the ugly and did not managed to keep the Bayonnais from scoring four tries. It appears like something good has finally sprouted from the Southern Hemisphere, the bonus point earned for scoring four tries was clearly instrumental in the Bayonnais' performance as they have never tried to restrict the game, they have played until the last minute in order to earn the bonus point, that which they deserve.

Yes, the bonus point system can lead to positive rugby. Its downside is that it can encourage all out try fests, with other aspects of the game neglected.