02-09-2004 18:53									#31
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Congrats Imran, welcome to the club. Though I think my membership just lapsed, cause I'm poor, but if I had more money I'd definitely join up again.

Che is right though, the ACLU hoes out your info to fricken everyone. I get lots of political junk now.

I went to the membership conference last year, it was really cool, and a big deal. It was their first annual membership conference. I do see some signs that the ACLU may change for the better in the years to come. A lot of the folks pushing through the affirmative action and "social justice" stuff are the old guard (and i do mean old, as in over 70-80) so give it a few years and things will improve. Younger members are more libertarian oriented, not totally, just a bit more than the oldsters.

The ACLU does need your membership though, they are gonna be in trouble too if they don't massively start recruiting youth. Their **average** age of members is in the 70s. That is just insane.

At the banquet I had a fun debate on gun rights with two ACLU board members. One agreed with me, (she was in her 30s/40s) and the other was adamant against me (he was an old hippy in his 70s). Another guy in his 20s agreed with me too.

Anyways.... ACLU

	02-09-2004 18:59									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The ACLU believes in religious freedom

As long as it isn't the Christian religion, of course. Let's be clear here.

	02-09-2004 19:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO As long as it isn't the Christian religion, of course. Let's be clear here.

No, they're precetly fine with the Christian faith, as long as you Christians don't force others to obey your faith and fund it with taxpayer money. Why is it you people always equate freedom of religion with forcing everyone else to be Christian?

	02-09-2004 19:04									#34
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO As long as it isn't the Christian religion, of course. Let's be clear here.

Asking Christians to respect other people's different religions does not equate with persecution of Christians.



(damn it -- a commie beat me to the punch)

	02-09-2004 19:51									#35
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Religious leanings aside....

At what point does the attempts to remove Judeo-Christian references within law and governance actually represent an attempt to remove the historical context that these laws and governance were built upon?

	02-09-2004 19:57									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well, depending on how the mail runs. I was involved in an argument on another site, and I realized how important our civil liberties are, especially when you have people who don't think the PATRIOT act took away people's liberties and since it doesn't directly and personally attack me, the threat is exaggerated. So, I gave $20 of my money to the ACLU. May they use it well... and I hope my card comes soon .

Welcome! Now you can ***** and moan about how they waste a good chunk of our dues taking away Civil Liberties!

Still, I AM hoping they concentrate on revoking this Patriot Act garbage.

	02-09-2004 20:19									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, they're precetly fine with the Christian faith, as long as you Christians don't force others to obey your faith and fund it with taxpayer money. Why is it you people always equate freedom of religion with forcing everyone else to be Christian?

I don't and the ACLU is definately biased against Christianity. I said nothing about forcing it down other people's throat...you did. The ACLU continually protests against Christian symbols while blantantly allowing other religious symbols to remain in public places. If they were actually for a level playing field, I would support them. The fact is that they are not.

	02-09-2004 20:21									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara you people

This very statement has been considered biggoted by the ACLU in the past yet you feel that you can use it in attacking those of the Christian faith. This is a prime example of the double standards that the ACLU employs.

	02-09-2004 20:22									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi So Imran, do you now support affirmative action, as the ACLU does?

Probably not.

quote: Or the right of NAMBLA to publish guides on how to "pick up" kids?

He already did.

	02-09-2004 20:31									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Religious leanings aside.... At what point does the attempts to remove Judeo-Christian references within law and governance actually represent an attempt to remove the historical context that these laws and governance were built upon?

When such laws are based on religious dogma that are anachronistic (such as stoning women to death), then those laws ought to be removed.

Of course, United States never that specific law in the first place, but that is an extreme example to illustrate how, in other ways, the religious-right is trying to pressure the Republican Party to impose theocratic laws, rather than secular laws based on rationality and liberty.

	02-09-2004 20:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO If they were actually for a level playing field, I would support them. The fact is that they are not.

Bingo. I just want them to stand up for the minority's rights, I do not see where that requires them to ELIMINATE the majority's rights which appears to be their primary agenda.

	02-09-2004 20:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun When such laws are based on religious dogma that are anachronistic (such as stoning women to death), then those laws ought to be removed. Of course, United States never that specific law in the first place, but that is an extreme example to illustrate how, in other ways, the religious-right is trying to pressure the Republican Party to impose theocratic laws, rather than secular laws based on rationality and liberty.

non sequitor. The presence of such symbols etc. are not an impedement on the ability to enact laws of rationality and liberty but moreover can be used as a touchstone to see where we were and where we have come. The rewriting of history prevents us from seeing that. I would think as a historian you should be especially sensetive to the biases of the moment for fear of losing a sense of what really happened.

	02-09-2004 20:58									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Bingo. I just want them to stand up for the minority's rights, I do not see where that requires them to ELIMINATE the majority's rights which appears to be their primary agenda.

In a well functioning democracy there must be checks and balances. An ACLU should exist to protect the rights of the minority. The ACLU that we have today is more interested in promoting the rights of the minority above the rights of the majority. As I said, I am for a level playing field. It is the ACLU that isn't.

	02-09-2004 21:02									#44
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[troll]The ACLU can kiss my arse. They're just a bunch of hypocritical commie basturds that have no since of what FREEDOM actually is... They should all move to France![/troll]

Way to get involved

	02-09-2004 21:04									#45
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Just because because the laws that would independantly be concidered right and just are congruent with Christian morality does not make them Christian.

Just like wearing pink which independantly makes good fashion sense but happens to be congruent with a gay steriotype does not make one gay.

	02-09-2004 21:07									#46
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quote: Just like wearing pink which independantly makes good fashion sense but happens to be congruent with a gay steriotype does not make one gay

No... it does

The way the ACLU protects freedoms is by attacking others freedoms. I despise their tactics and the battles they chose to fight. We can no longer display the 10 Commandments but we have to put up with public prayers to Allah... Hypocracy!

Why not both? Because the ACLU sees both as an infringment of ppls personal freedoms.

If they preached tolerance more than suppresion of representation I would be more happy.

	02-09-2004 21:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Japher We can no longer display the 10 Commandments but we have to put up with public prayers to Allah... Hypocracy!

What the hell are you talking about? Public prayer to Allah, i.e., God, are just as abhorent to the ACLU as displaying the 10C . . . on public property! The ACLU is not for removing Christian symbols, unless they are someplace they have no business being, like on public property!

There is no law against Christians praying at school, just against organized prayer at public schools. You cannot use the government to force your religion on others, regardless of how right you think you are.

	02-09-2004 21:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Japher If they preached tolerance more than suppresion of representation I would be more happy.

My money should not be used to support religionists' expression of their beliefs. If they want to hold services to God, let them do it on their own time, with their own money.

	02-09-2004 21:25									#49
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quote: What the hell are you talking about? Public prayer to Allah, i.e., God, are just as abhorent to the ACLU as displaying the 10C . . . on public property! The ACLU is not for removing Christian symbols, unless they are someplace they have no business being, like on public property! There is no law against Christians praying at school, just against organized prayer at public schools. You cannot use the government to force your religion on others, regardless of how right you think you are.

Really? Look at their work with Judge Phyllis Hamilton and you will see that I am right. That the ACLU is only against Christianity and when they remove christian and jewish symbolism or prayer they replace it with islamic ones.

quote: My money should not be used to support religionists' expression of their beliefs. If they want to hold services to God, let them do it on their own time, with their own money.

Did I say that? No. The ACLU believes that a cross offends. If they had their way it would be against the law for people to have double paned windows in their homes because it looks like a cross and offends passer-bys.

quote: If they want to hold services to God, let them do it on their own time, with their own money.

So, once you look up their dealing with Judge Hamilton and how they go out of their way to keep Islam in the PUBLIC schools but eradicate Christianity, tell me how they are doing this...

	02-09-2004 21:30									#50
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara My money should not be used to support religionists' expression of their beliefs. If they want to hold services to God, let them do it on their own time, with their own money.

My money should not be used to keep me from expressing my beliefs. If you don't want to hear my beliefs, go somewhere else.

ACK!

	02-09-2004 21:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Really? Look at their work with Judge Phyllis Hamilton and you will see that I am right.

What, with overturning the Federal ban of late term abortion? I see she made an insane ruling saying it was okay to allow that class teaching about Islam, but I don't see where the ACLU had anything to do with it. I agree the ruling is disgusting, but I don't see what the ACLU has to do with it.

	02-09-2004 21:35									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski My money should not be used to keep me from expressing my beliefs.

It's not. You are perfectly free to use your money and express your beliefs, as long as you don't force me to subsidize you.

	02-09-2004 21:40									#53
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quote: I see she made an insane ruling saying it was okay to allow that class teaching about Islam, but I don't see where the ACLU had anything to do with it. I agree the ruling is disgusting, but I don't see what the ACLU has to do with it.

Because the ruling was made based off of articles written by the ACLU and one Mr. Bill Clinton.

http://www.blessedcause.org/clinton.htm

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/art...13/172143.shtml

She is defending the ACLU's right to do this sort of thing.

	02-09-2004 21:43									#54
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Blessed Cause and NewsMax are valid sources now?

	02-09-2004 21:50									#55
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Yes.

	02-09-2004 21:52									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Blessed Cause and NewsMax are valid sources now?

Says the person who's quoted Indymedia to us before.

	02-09-2004 22:01									#58
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Just using them to show the facts, since all the liberal media wants to cover it up. Nevermind their "opinions" just look at the FACTS.

	02-09-2004 22:02									#59
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btw, way to go on joining something that you believe in. i'd considered the ACLU before, but they do far too many things that i disagree with.

which is why i sent my money to the EFF instead.

	02-09-2004 22:03									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Says the person who's quoted Indymedia to us before.

Once, and never again.