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Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
So, once you look up their dealing with Judge Hamilton and how they go out of their way to keep Islam in the PUBLIC schools but eradicate Christianity, tell me how they are doing this...


I have yet to see any public schools that make some sort of support for Islam...

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It's not. You are perfectly free to use your money and express your beliefs, as long as you don't force me to subsidize you.


Isn't this slightly incongruous with communism? If we don't have money, how do we express our beliefs?

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:13
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Got spare money?

The ACLU is devil spawn.

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
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Jun 2002
time: 05:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:14
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quote:
have yet to see any public schools that make some sort of support for Islam...


That's a good thing.

http://www.thomasmore.org/

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:17
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Religion in Public Schools: Pledge Out, Islam In
Tue, Jun 25, 2002
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(ANN ARBOR, MI) -- In the same week that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals held the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional, a federal lawsuit was filed in San Francisco after Christian students across California were forced to pretend they were Muslims for three weeks, praying in the name of Allah the Compassionate the Merciful, chanting Praise to Allah, picking a Muslim name from a list to replace their own name and to stage their own Jihad via a dice game.
The Thomas More Law Center, a national, public interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, representing parents and four children, filed the lawsuit against the Byron Union School District and various school officials to stop the use of the "Islam Simulation" materials in the Byron/Excelsior Public School in Byron, California.

"What's at issue," said Richard Thompson, Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, "is the true meaning of the Establishment Clause. The use of the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance in no way establishes a national religion. However, the Byron Union school district crossed the line and is clearly in violation of the Establishment clause by using taxpayer dollars to teach students how to worship as a Muslim."

At issue in the lawsuit is a three-week segment of the seventh grade "World History" class using the textbook "Across the Centuries" published by Houghton Mifflin and supplemented by Islam simulation materials. Students were told that, "you and your classmates will become Muslims."

To receive points toward their overall grade, students were encouraged to dress as Muslims and to use such phrases in their speech as "Allah Akbar," which is Arabic for "God is great". Students were required to memorize Muslim prayers, fulfill the Five Pillars of Faith and fast during lunch period to simulate fasting during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

Thompson further noted, "parents with children in this course were totally caught off guard and had no idea what their children were being taught."

Said Thompson, "This is unbelievable. While public schools prohibit Christian students from reading the Bible, praying, displaying the Ten Commandments, and even mentioning the word "God", students in California are being indoctrinated into the religion of Islam. Public schools would never tolerate teaching Christianity in this way. Just imagine the ACLU's outcry if students were told that they had to pray the Lords Prayer, memorize the Ten Commandments, use such phrases as 'Jesus is the Messiah,' and fast during Lent."

According to Thompson, "Although it is constitutional for public schools to have an instructional program about comparative religion or teach about religion and utilize religious books such as the Bible in courses about our history and culture, the Byron Union School District crossed way over the constitutional line when it coerced impressionable twelve year olds to engage in particular religious rituals and worship, simulated or not."

The Thomas More Law Center defends the religious freedom of Christians, time-honored family values, and the sanctity of human life through litigation, education, and related activities. The Law Center provides its services at no charge, and depends on individual donations, foundations, and corporations for financial support. The IRS recognizes the Law Center as a 501(c)(3) organization and donations are tax deductible. You may contact the Law Center at (734) 827-2001 or visit its website at www.thomasmore.org.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:19
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quote:

The ACLU believes in religious freedom, just not tha ability to use the government to shove your version of religion down other people's throats.


So why do they hassle schools for inviting a gospel singer, or try to strip away any religious icons displayed in public?

Religious freedoms include not only the freedom to believe, but also to practice and talk about those beliefs in public.

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
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Jun 2002
time: 05:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:21
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quote:
Religious freedoms include not only the freedom to believe, but also to practice and talk about those beliefs in public.


Exactly. Yet, you only see them attack Christian and Judiasm... All the others can do as they please.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:23 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


non sequitor. The presence of such symbols etc. are not an impedement on the ability to enact laws of rationality and liberty but moreover can be used as a touchstone to see where we were and where we have come. The rewriting of history prevents us from seeing that. I would think as a historian you should be especially sensetive to the biases of the moment for fear of losing a sense of what really happened.



Where did I say that all laws that happen to share a heritage with Christianity are automatically to be disregarded as anachronistic??

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:23
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quote:

Why is it you people always equate freedom of religion with forcing everyone else to be Christian?


Freedom of speech includes the right for those to whom you disagree to speak. Religion cannot be forced on anyone, yet there is a big difference between forcing religion and sharing religion.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:27
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quote:

Asking Christians to respect other people's different religions does not equate with persecution of Christians.


It is also proper to ask those of other faiths, or even without faith to respect the beliefs of Christians. This we do not see, and the ACLU reinforces the inbalance.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun



Where did I say that all laws that happen to share a heritage with Christianity are automatically to be disregarded as anachronistic??


No you implied the presence of wording towards God and/or symbols etc. automatically imply inability to enact rational laws of liberty.

My point is they don't necessarily do so and are part of the historical context of the country and laws therein. To remove them is merely an attempt to rewrite history.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 02-09-2004 22:46 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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Join the club.

I sent them another contribution fairly recently, about a month ago.

The Center for Constitutional Rights is another good civil liberties organization.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 00:53
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Do you intend only to give money to the ACLU, or do you also intend to put some time and effort in it as well?

If you become an active member, know to say "no". When you work for free for an organization, there will be always tons and tons of work to do, and the more work you do for them, the more they'll ask from you. A polite "no" (i.e politely explaining the limits of your input) is a necessity to any active member of a political organization.

Admiral is offline Admiral
Warlord
of the peace and coexistance movement
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 03:07
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The reason that the ACLU may be percieved as anti-christain is that it primarily seeks to combat the interference of christianity into government. This is because the US is predominantly a christian country. Were Islam, or Buddhism, or other religions to actually have a large following in the US, attempts would be made to cross the boundaries between church and state and maybe have, I don't know, enforced meditation. If this was the case, then the ACLU would oppose it. However, as it is, there is no real threat possed by nonchristian religions to the seperation of church and state. However, there are a lot of people who think that Christianity should have some place in the US government, and there were even attempts to pass an amendment that mandated public school prayer.
That being said, the ACLU, or certain ACLU members, may go slightly overboard in their protection of the first amendment. But on the whole, the ACLU fights the good fight, if you'll pardon a religious metaphor, against the encroachment of religion into matters of state.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 03:16
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That may be the case, but they've gone far beyond the separation of church and state, to the removal of all traces of Christianity in public life. Why seek to strip away crosses?

Also, the drafters of the Constitution of the United states sought to preserve liberties in religious freedom, not to purge all traces of religion in public life. If that were so, than all Christians would be required to step down from positions of authority.

Admiral, what do you believe to be a reasonable position, allowing for the protection of religious liberties while ensuring the freedom of each to practice as they see fit?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 03:40
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quote:
Imran, prepare to be on every liberal organization's mailing list.


Ah, I already get conservative mailings from being a college Republican and whatnot . Though I did check that mark saying I don't want them to give my name to other groups.

quote:
Do you intend only to give money to the ACLU, or do you also intend to put some time and effort in it as well?


I believe I'll just give money. My activism days seem to be over . I did some protesting and stuff as a college Republican. I support a lot of their efforts in civil liberties, but think they may go too far in some areas, so money is mostly all they'll get from me .

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I believe I'll just give money. My activism days seem to be over . I did some protesting and stuff as a college Republican. I support a lot of their efforts in civil liberties, but think they may go too far in some areas, so money is mostly all they'll get from me .


Or, what you COULD do is, send them the money but put it in MY name. That way, I could be active in the group without paying the dues (being a poor college student and all), and you'd still be providing for the ACLU monetarily!

Is this a perfect plan?......no, but I think that's what I like about it!

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 04:20
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I like the personal glory of my own card.

Theben is offline Theben
Emperor
Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well since Newsmax called me that, I figure I should embrace my true calling .


I think they called you a pedophile too. How are you going to address this...?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 05:07
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Well there are many posters under 18 here .

Did they really call me that? I wasn't informed of that slur .

Sprayber is offline Sprayber

Emperor
Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 05:13
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In order for balance to be restored in the force, someone on the left has to join the NRA

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 07:05 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
In order for balance to be restored in the force, someone on the left has to join the NRA




Do they offer rainbow-colored guns?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 07:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So why do they hassle schools for inviting a gospel singer, or try to strip away any religious icons displayed in public?

Religious freedoms include not only the freedom to believe, but also to practice and talk about those beliefs in public.


But not with public funds, as public officials.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 07:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
Exactly. Yet, you only see them attack Christian and Judiasm... All the others can do as they please.


BS... it's just that Christians are the biggest offenders. How often do you see school funds used to promote Islam?

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 08:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Freedom of speech includes the right for those to whom you disagree to speak. Religion cannot be forced on anyone, yet there is a big difference between forcing religion and sharing religion.


Exactly, sharing religion is "Hey, I've got some extra religion here, would you like some?"

Forcing religion is sticking cross on someone's front lawn and saying it belongs there.

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 08:19
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quote:
BS... it's just that Christians are the biggest offenders. How often do you see school funds used to promote Islam?


So, it's not BS... They don't only attack school funds, buddy... they attack rights, those things that do not require money of any kind.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 08:47 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
In order for balance to be restored in the force, someone on the left has to join the NRA


While both memberships have lapsed at the moment to do lack of funds, I have been proud card-carrying members of both the NRA and the ACLU.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 08:49
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quote:

Forcing religion is sticking cross on someone's front lawn and saying it belongs there.


Precisely. You are well within your rights to stop a man from dropping a cross on your lawn. But you don't get to stop a man from placing one on his, even if you can see it from your yard.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 08:51
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Right, and public lawns belong to everyone, so if not everyone likes it, it shouldn't be there.

Straybow is offline Straybow
Emperor
SG(2)… gone but not forgotten
Jan 1970
time: 23:36
  Old Post 03-09-2004 08:51 Visit Straybow's homepage!
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They attack the use of historic municipal Seals that happen to have a cross somewhere on it. In one case it was barely visible, if you knew where to look.

They attack symbolic displays of 10C in courtrooms or courthouses (you know, paired rectangles with Roman numerals I-V on one and VI-X on the other), however innocuously placed or historic their presence.

These are issues of spitefulness, not liberty or Constitutionality. The great harm is that idiot jurists whose opinions were formed (twisted) in the same era of rebellion and hubris go along with them.


Nope, they'd never get my dues. Try the ACLK instead.

 
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