03-09-2004 08:51									#91
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quote: But not with public funds, as public officials.

So then tell me why Christians are paying to have their children taught awareness of other religions in a public school?

And are teachers permitted to wear a cross around their neck? What about politicians? They are all public officials.

	03-09-2004 08:53									#92
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quote: Right, and public lawns belong to everyone, so if not everyone likes it, it shouldn't be there.

Suppose a Christian donated the money for the park with this clause as part of the stipulation?

	03-09-2004 08:54									#93
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quote: it's just that Christians are the biggest offenders. How often do you see school funds used to promote Islam?

I went to public school. I learned about the 5 pillars of Islam there, but I sure didn't hear anything about the ten commandments.

	03-09-2004 08:55									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So then tell me why Christians are paying to have their children taught awareness of other religions in a public school?

Being taught awareness of those religions is different from being taught that they are true.

quote: And are teachers permitted to wear a cross around their neck? What about politicians? They are all public officials.

I said as public officials, not by. And that's different from an elected one - religion is part of someone's political views, which a politician is supposed to display. I'm sure you'd disagree with a teacher espousing communism in the classroom.

In any case, a teacher (for example) shouldn't expect to exercise rights to free speech, etc. while teaching a class.

	03-09-2004 08:56									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I went to public school. I learned about the 5 pillars of Islam there, but I sure didn't hear anything about the ten commandments.

You must have a bad memory. Hell, we read a bunch of bible stories in English class! (We also learned about Islam, but we didn't read even part of the Koran.)

	03-09-2004 08:56									#96
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Suppose a Muslim does the same thing? Such clauses shouldn't be allowed. Besides, why would anyone want to do that?

	03-09-2004 08:57									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Japher So, it's not BS... They don't only attack school funds, buddy... they attack rights, those things that do not require money of any kind.

Such as...

(teachers, etc. are on a public payroll, btw)

	03-09-2004 08:58									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow They attack the use of historic municipal Seals that happen to have a cross somewhere on it. In one case it was barely visible, if you knew where to look.

In which case I'm against them, but my defense is "surely there are better things to worry about?"

	03-09-2004 08:58									#99
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quote: You must have a bad memory.

Right.

quote: Hell, we read a bunch of bible stories in English class! (We also learned about Islam, but we didn't read even part of the Koran.)

Even atheists admit the KJV as English literature, so no dice there.

	03-09-2004 08:58									#100
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Wearing a head scarf to school... personal practices of hanging signs... etc...

So be it on public property, but it wasn't public officials who a) paid for it and b) hung it

A church sits on a public street... should we ban them too?

CHurches that is, not streets

	03-09-2004 09:00									#101
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Churches are a public service. cbeast

	03-09-2004 09:01									#103
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Fix your tags

	03-09-2004 09:06									#104
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quote: Being taught awareness of those religions is different from being taught that they are true.

So then people ought to be taught about Christianity and Christian beliefs, about the Trinity, and stuff that Christians consider important to their faith in a class on world religions.

You could even invite a prominent Christian to speak on the topic in order to gain greater understanding.

quote: I'm sure you'd disagree with a teacher espousing communism in the classroom.

I've had to pay for professors who teach communism in my history classes.

I don't mind so long as I get to have my say as to why I believe his arguments to be faulty.

The same is true for public schools. Education should not be about shielding children, but rather about teaching them. Sadly, we veer too much towards the former, in giving them pablum rather than philosophy.

quote: In any case, a teacher (for example) shouldn't expect to exercise rights to free speech, etc. while teaching a class.

It used to be teachers were teachers because they were renowned for their intellect, and understanding. A pupil would not wish his teacher to muzzle their own beliefs, because that would be why they taught in the first place.

I agree, that it is not the place of a math teacher to spend a great deal of time on this subject, but if the topic comes up, I see no reason why the teacher should be prevented from saying what he believes and why.

	03-09-2004 09:10									#105
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quote: In which case I'm against them, but my defense is "surely there are better things to worry about?"

Rather parochial attitude, Skywalker.

Christians have contributed an enormous amount to American society, such that in order to understand America, and Americans, you need to have some understanding of Christianity.

When an organisation attempts to strip away all the representations of that contribution, that bothers Christians, because that means society no longer values their participation.

	03-09-2004 09:19									#106
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Stuff that happens in Canada doesn't apply to the United States. You people have different rules.

	03-09-2004 09:21									#107
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quote: Stuff that happens in Canada doesn't apply to the United States. You people have different rules.

I wondered if Skywalker would clue into that.

	03-09-2004 09:26									#109
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[q] Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Rather parochial attitude, Skywalker.

Christians have contributed an enormous amount to American society, such that in order to understand America, and Americans, you need to have some understanding of Christianity.[/quote]

Which is why we studied the bible in English last year - to understand its effects on literature.

But to teach about Christianity is different from teaching Christianity.

	03-09-2004 10:13									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker But to teach about Christianity is different from teaching Christianity.

Give the man a cigar!

	03-09-2004 10:21									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So then people ought to be taught about Christianity and Christian beliefs, about the Trinity, and stuff that Christians consider important to their faith in a class on world religions.

The trinity is relatively worthless towards understanding of Christianity's impact on the world. Obviously it would be studied in a comparative religion class.

quote: I've had to pay for professors who teach communism in my history classes.

But you don't go to a public university.

quote: It used to be teachers were teachers because they were renowned for their intellect, and understanding. A pupil would not wish his teacher to muzzle their own beliefs, because that would be why they taught in the first place.

False. A teacher's sole purpose is to impart knowledge and skills. Not to proselytise.

	03-09-2004 10:21									#112
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Give the man a cigar!

I'm not 21.

	03-09-2004 21:43									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi So Imran, do you now support affirmative action, as the ACLU does?

As does the U.S. Supreme Court. :b"

quote: Or the right of NAMBLA to publish guides on how to "pick up" kids?

Yes that is embarrassing. And the ACLU also supported the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW II. What can I say?? Everyone screws up from time to time. But the ACLU takes on civil rights issues no one else will touch -- like in the 60's supporting the Nazi's free speech rights to peacefully march in Illinois.

Freedom of speech, freedom to practice a religion other than the one unofficially endorsed by the government, freedom of assembly...it's the American & ACLU way!

Imran, welcome.

(But yeah, you will soon find yourself on every liberal-cause mailing list in the galaxy. Sorry about that. I was invited to join the Moral Majority once because, they said, I was the kind of person they were looking for. )

	03-09-2004 22:14									#114
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quote: But the ACLU takes on civil rights issues no one else will touch

Like the freedom of pedophiles to publish guides on how to pick up kids which you so casually brush aside?

	03-09-2004 22:57									#115
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Free Speech sucks, doesn't it, DD?

	03-09-2004 23:00									#116
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Ask Zkribbler.

	03-09-2004 23:38									#117
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: But the ACLU takes on civil rights issues no one else will touch Like the freedom of pedophiles to publish guides on how to pick up kids which you so casually brush aside?

Yes.

	03-09-2004 23:50									#118
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quote: The trinity is relatively worthless towards understanding of Christianity's impact on the world. Obviously it would be studied in a comparative religion class.

No, the trinity is very relevant to these things. The conception of God plays a role in how Christianity interacts with both the Muslims, and the Jews, both of whom do not believe in the Trinity.

quote: But you don't go to a public university.

Yes I do. The University of British Columbia is a public university. Communism is very much part and parcel of the deal.

That's why it's so unusual for me to have become Christian after going to university, because UBC is hostile to Christian beliefs.

quote: False. A teacher's sole purpose is to impart knowledge and skills. Not to proselytise.

Did people listen to Plato so that he could 'impart knowledge and skills?' No, they listened to him, because they believed him to have great understanding about the world. The listened to him because they believed him to be right.

	03-09-2004 23:53									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, the trinity is very relevant to these things. The conception of God plays a role in how Christianity interacts with both the Muslims, and the Jews, both of whom do not believe in the Trinity.

The concept of the trinity has nothing to do with a Christian outlook. It may be a point of difference, but the specifics of it are irrelevent - the only importance is that there are points of difference.

quote: Yes I do. The University of British Columbia is a public university. Communism is very much part and parcel of the deal.

I thought you went to a private university

Ah well, you still pay tuition, so it's not as bad. But no, public funds should not be used to support a political viewpoint.

quote: Did people listen to Plato so that he could 'impart knowledge and skills?' No, they listened to him, because they believed him to have great understanding about the world. The listened to him because they believed him to be right.

I.e. they wanted him to impart his knowledge to them.

In a philosophy course, the professor should teach about the different beliefs, not actually teach a specific belief.

	04-09-2004 01:25									#120
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I never thought this argument would come up in this sort of thread .