02-09-2004 17:30									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed She might be unconcious, drunk beyond belief or incredibly scared because of the violence being committed against her. Still rape.

If she's being beaten or something, duh. But we're not talking about cases like this. Same with unconscious or drunk (I wonder if two people who are drunk do this, is anyone at fault, though).

I am talking about two people getting it on, no violence, no nothing, and then an accusation of rape

In any case, I don't see how can this be proven, really.... either way.

	02-09-2004 17:30									#32
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There's nothing left to debate. With that last sentence, he admits he raped her. I think of lot of you Polytubbies owe the woman an apology.

	02-09-2004 17:31									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael She was not raped.

Except for the fact he just admitted he raped her.

	02-09-2004 17:32									#34
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quote: There's nothing left to debate. With that last sentence, he admits he raped her. I think of lot of you Polytubbies owe the woman an apology.

o_O

	02-09-2004 17:32									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed She might be unconcious, drunk beyond belief or incredibly scared because of the violence being committed against her. Still rape.

I agree. Unconcious and drunk beyond belief go to the determination if someone has capacity to consent. I'd add age and mental disability to the list. Violence to me is the same . I don't care how many times she said " yes boink me, boink me now" if it was said with a knife to her throat.

	02-09-2004 17:32									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's nothing left to debate. With that last sentence, he admits he raped her. I think of lot of you Polytubbies owe the woman an apology.

No, he admits she saw things differently. If she didn't say no, or stop him, how was he to know he was raping her? She could even have consented but felt that the consent was under duress.

Saying 'he raped her' is implying the action on his part. if he believed she consented, and she gave no indication at the time that she didn't, then his action was to have consensual sex.

I can understand there are times when someone wouldn't consent but would feel unable to say no (while still being conscious). However how can you prosecute a man who believed that she consented, and who's only desire was consensual sex.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but it is a possibility.

	02-09-2004 17:35									#37
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Yah, it does sound a lot like he's admitting to rape, even though it probably wasn't intentional rape (i.e. he's not some psychopath who steals women from their homes and does terrible things to them, he's an egotistical ******* who thinks everyone wants him and abuses people when he doesn't get what he wants)

But I'm not really sure that anyone in this case is telling the truth, and I'm willing to bet he was instructed to say that as an inroad to the civil case... and the settlement that will follow.

	02-09-2004 17:35									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: There's nothing left to debate. With that last sentence, he admits he raped her. I think of lot of you Polytubbies owe the woman an apology. o_O

Because of lot of them called her a lying whore or other words to that effect.

	02-09-2004 17:36									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue No, he admits she saw things differently.

That's rape.

	02-09-2004 17:38									#40
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Wow, lots of closet rapists here.

	02-09-2004 17:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Wow, lots of closet rapists here.

You become more and more offensive as time passes.

	02-09-2004 17:39									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's rape.

No, rape is having sex with someone against their will. If she didn't tell him her will, how was he to know? If that is true, by your definition, he raped her, but he didn't know he was doing it.

	02-09-2004 17:39									#43
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I don't understand about evidence in such cases. What evidence exists?

	02-09-2004 17:40									#44
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DNA evidence that they had sex, and her testimony that it was non-consensual. It's up to the jury to decide if there is any reasonable doubt that she is lying.

Edit: Plus what Lorizeal lists below

	02-09-2004 17:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's nothing left to debate. With that last sentence, he admits he raped her. I think of lot of you Polytubbies owe the woman an apology.

I can't see it as such an admission. he seems to be raising a defence here that is characterized as mistake of fact.

In Canada you wouldn't be convicted of a break and enter if you thought the cabin you were breaking into was owned by your friend. Lets just say he had said you should break a window to get something for him since his girlfriend had gone off with the keys and he needed that something. The fact that you were actually breaking into someone else's cabin would be irrelevant if you had a reasonable belief in a set of facts that would render your conduct non-criminal.

I wonder would a "reasonable belief in her consent" type defence be available in that state? It seems remarkable to me that he would concede that there was no actual active consent though.

	02-09-2004 17:41									#46
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Damage to the vaginal area is usually important. Also any scarring to indicate that the person was bound in any way. Rapists usually aren't the slow and steady type.

	02-09-2004 17:42									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue No, rape is having sex with someone against their will.

And if she viewed it differently, then he's admitting it was against her will. That's rape.

	02-09-2004 17:43									#48
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So if she consented, but her will was that she didn't want to have sex, that would be rape too?

	02-09-2004 17:46									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Rapists usually aren't the slow and steady type.

Sez you. Date rape is generally non-violent. That doesn't make it not rape.

	02-09-2004 17:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue So if she consented, but her will was that she didn't want to have sex, that would be rape too?

It depends on whether its true consent, i.e., no coercion.

	02-09-2004 17:47									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue DNA evidence that they had sex, and her testimony that it was non-consensual. It's up to the jury to decide if there is any reasonable doubt that she is lying.

I would actually restate to say that they must have no reasonable doubt that her account is truthful.


Azazel-- in almost all rape cases it is a he said she said situation since there are almost never any witnesses. If the sex is admitted by both parties then the only issue is whether or not there is consent.

Unfortunately, the woman that resists more, possibly risking her own death, is much more likely to be believed. When there is no physical trauma for the offender to explain , it is a lot easier to craft a plausible consent story.

All that said, I believe that prosecuters get convictions in a fair number of these type of cases. Juries and judges tend to believe complainants since false claims of rape are viewed as relatively rare

	02-09-2004 17:57									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sez you. Date rape is generally non-violent. That doesn't make it not rape.

Agreed. If the rapist merely threatens violence, that enough.


But take a standard date situation. back at her place, kissing takes place and then at some point the guy makes his move and slowly slides his hand to an intimate location. No protest at all. he slowly increases the intimacy level until 15 minutes later both are undressed. he says " I want you to do x and y". She does.

She has never explicitly consented to anything and he has threatened nothing. Lets say he is a good guy and would never never raise a hand to anyone. lets just say that any objective person watching this would see "consensual sex" with no indications otherwise. But the woman was beaten by her last 3 boyfriends and in her own mind if she didn't comply, she would be beaten ( not because of ANYTHING this guy did but because of her past experiences).

Is anyone really suggesting this is rape? If anyone does, how does getting her to verbalize her consent change anything since it would be given by her only because she expects a beating if she doesn't give it, despite the fact that the current guy has done nothing even remotely aggressive?

	02-09-2004 18:01									#53
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quote: DNA evidence that they had sex, and her testimony that it was non-consensual. It's up to the jury to decide if there is any reasonable doubt that she is lying.

quote: Azazel-- in almost all rape cases it is a he said she said situation since there are almost never any witnesses. If the sex is admitted by both parties then the only issue is whether or not there is consent. Unfortunately, the woman that resists more, possibly risking her own death, is much more likely to be believed. When there is no physical trauma for the offender to explain , it is a lot easier to craft a plausible consent story. All that said, I believe that prosecuters get convictions in a fair number of these type of cases. Juries and judges tend to believe complainants since false claims of rape are viewed as relatively rare

so the defendant must prove his innocence, and not the other way around?

	02-09-2004 18:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sez you. Date rape is generally non-violent. That doesn't make it not rape.

There are three different kinds of rape. Date rape is one kind. The most frequent type of rape is committed by people very close to the rape victim, and it generally is violent because it represents repressed urges on the part of the rapist. It's an action that would not normally take place between the two individuals involved, so force is required to make it happen.

	02-09-2004 18:07									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel so the defendant must prove his innocence, and not the other way around?

No. As I said, if the jury has reasonable doubt in her story, they must aquit. There can be doubt and conviction, but if there is reasonable doubt, then they must aquit.

	02-09-2004 18:17									#56
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'reasonable doubt' is very vague. My question is: Is a case of "one person's word against another" good enough for a lengthy sentencing.

The whole issue seems so undefined...justice is so tricky.

	02-09-2004 18:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel so the defendant must prove his innocence, and not the other way around?

Nope- still the prosecutions burden


But if the victim gets up there and is totally believable, that burden can be met and the defense will have a heck of a time

	02-09-2004 18:19									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel 'reasonable doubt' is very vague. My question is: Is a case of "one person's word against another" good enough for a lengthy sentencing.

Yes-- if they believe one and not the other. Juries have the ability to detrermine the weight they give to testimony.

	02-09-2004 18:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel so the defendant must prove his innocence, and not the other way around?

That's pretty much how it seems to work, at least where I come from. At least if the woman was a "good girl".

	02-09-2004 18:35									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel 'reasonable doubt' is very vague. My question is: Is a case of "one person's word against another" good enough for a lengthy sentencing.

Reasonable doubt is the legal term in the UK. "Prove beyond reasonable doubt". And with one person's word against another, if the jury has no reasonable doubt left, they can convict on it.