02-09-2004 19:16									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Drogue No, rape is having sex with someone against their will. If she didn't tell him her will, how was he to know?

If he doesn't know if she wants to have sex, he shouldn't be having sex with her.


Is having sex with an unconscious person not rape, because they don't know and can't say wether theyw ant it or not?

What about a blind and deaf man raping women?



Rape is having sex without the other person wanting it.

	02-09-2004 19:42									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ludd, try and understand the impossibility of what your saying.

By your logic, what if a woman is just looking for money and has sex with the explicit purpose of claiming rape (just a hypothetical)? By your rules of evidence there is no way to stop that.

I understand people feeling for rape victims, and I have a very close freind who was (violence, no contest). But despite the horrible nature of these crimes we give the defendent powers that are not even available for murder cases.

Despite whatever trappings you want to add about emotions the fact is the only thing most rappists are convicted with is unsubstatiated biased point of view testimony. Period. And you guys ***** about terrorist tribunals...

And then there is that stupid rule that a woman can decide at any time that it was unconsencual. Years after the fact is okay. How can a guy defend against that? It is anti-democratic, against every other judicial precident, and a very slippery slope.

	02-09-2004 19:46									#63
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think his statement illustrates that men and women, or better, any two people, can view the consent issue differently. A rape case critically depends, it appears, not on the consent or lack of consent of the "victim," but on whether he or she effectively communicated that lack of consent to the other.

IMHO, the consent issue in this case was in doubt from the beginning. The evidence was not convincing one way or the other. But certainly, it did not rise to the level required for a conviction.

The only conclusion one should draw is that the prosecution never should have been brought in the first place.

	02-09-2004 19:51									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd If he doesn't know if she wants to have sex, he shouldn't be having sex with her. Is having sex with an unconscious person not rape, because they don't know and can't say wether theyw ant it or not? What about a blind and deaf man raping women? Rape is having sex without the other person wanting it.

How do you ever "know" that the other person wants to have sex? The other night I had sex with my wife when I would have rather not (nagging back injury). I didn't realy want to, but I complied.

Was I raped?

	02-09-2004 19:54									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Kobe's statement, and I am not convinced on guilt one way of the other, is basiclly him agnolaging the diffictulty of the matter.

Kobe had sex with a consenting female, who after the fact "decided" it was rape. If that happened to me, even though I did nothing wrong and couldn't help how she later interepreted an event that at the time she had no problem with, I would still feel like ****. He is stating the obvious, that they now have a differnence of opinion.

But the fact remains that so far, unless she modifies the story we know, there was no violence or intimidation (him being famous is not intimidation, he can't help that) and she has yet to say she did anything to convey she did not want sex, ie verbally of physically.

	02-09-2004 19:58									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ned I think his statement illustrates that men and women, or better, any two people, can view the consent issue differently. A rape case critically depends, it appears, not on the consent or lack of consent of the "victim," but on whether he or she effectively communicated that lack of consent to the other.

In the realm of physical intimacy, requiring a positive affirmation of consent gets ludicrous. If I get consent to touch her left breast, do I need to get another consent to touch the right. If she consented to manual stimulation of the genitals, do I ned another consent to resume there after pausing to stroke her hair.

A party ALWAYS has the right to deny or revoke consent at anytime. I don't care if its after 10 minutes of intercourse and someone suddenly yells STOP. No means NO. Period. I just feel its reasonable to expect someone to have to actually say no if the other circumstances would lead someone to reasonably believe that the other participant was willing.

	02-09-2004 21:10									#67
	Got spare money?

Come on who truly asks woman for sex? You make out and just let it go...
If she doesnt say she dont want or something she is in agreement. Of course you can judge yourself from her reactions if she happylie agrees or not...

But you cant call it rape just because she remains passive. Some woman always remain passive cose they are not expirienced yet, or they are just lazy whatever...
that doesnt necessarily mean they dont enjoy...

	02-09-2004 21:17									#68
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos By your logic, what if a woman is just looking for money and has sex with the explicit purpose of claiming rape (just a hypothetical)? By your rules of evidence there is no way to stop that.

Sure there is. He can ask permission. Yes is an affirmative defence.

	02-09-2004 21:19									#69
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Flubber In the realm of physical intimacy, requiring a positive affirmation of consent gets ludicrous.

I don't know why. I always asked before my long term relationship with the Bgrrl, and she has enough force of personality to tell me to shove off (not that she would since she has a much stronger drive than I do).

	02-09-2004 21:21									#70
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DanielXY Come on who truly asks woman for sex?

I do. I always have. Sometimes I've even declined when she said yes but her body language said no. I'm all about respecting the other person. Sex is fun, but it's not so much fun that I'm willing to ruin another prson's life for it.

	02-09-2004 21:23									#71
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't know why. I always asked before my long term relationship with the Bgrrl, and she has enough force of personality to tell me to shove off (not that she would since she has a much stronger drive than I do).

This reads like you ceased to always ask when you got into a long-time relationship.

	02-09-2004 21:26									#72
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist This reads like you ceased to always ask when you got into a long-time relationship.

Assent is always sought, not always verbally though. With me, however, BG is of the opinion of taking it when she can get it.

	02-09-2004 21:37									#73
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sex is fun, but it's not so much fun that I'm willing to ruin another prson's life for it.

Huh-- why would it ruin someone's life to have to make the effort to say "no" or "not tonight".

	02-09-2004 21:38									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Huh-- why would it ruin someone's life to have to make the effort to say "no" or "not tonight".

Why would it ruin your fun to explicitely ask for your partner's opinion on having sex?

	02-09-2004 21:39									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Assent is always sought, not always verbally though. With me, however, BG is of the opinion of taking it when she can get it.

So non-verbal assent-- I'm assuming tghis is by her umm ACTIONS. and those actions would be moving in ways to facilitate rather than impede matters RIGHT??

	02-09-2004 21:42									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Rape is having sex without the other person wanting it

Before or after the act?

It seems to me that in many rape cases, it is more regret that perpetuates the charges rather than actual intent.

"Ewww, I didn't have sex with that guy did I? He must of raped me!"

blah

	02-09-2004 21:44									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Why would it ruin your fun to explicitely ask for your partner's opinion on having sex?

If both this, and "not tonight" are effective, what does it matter which method is used?

Why the need to dictate one over the other?

-=Vel=-

	02-09-2004 21:44									#78
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Japher It seems to me that in many rape cases, it is more regret that perpetuates the charges rather than actual intent.

And this opinion is based on what knowledge?

	02-09-2004 21:45									#79
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Why the need to dictate one over the other?

Because it's your responsibility to keep your ass out of jail, and all you need to do is ask a simple question. With that much on the line, you'd think it'd be a lot easier for guys to make a choice.

	02-09-2004 21:46									#80
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It's my responsibility to pick my lovers better, so it's not an issue to begin with, and it never has been...

-=Vel=-

	02-09-2004 21:48									#81
	Support Apolyton

Yeah, well, too many guys think with their dicks.

	02-09-2004 21:53									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I do. I always have. Sometimes I've even declined when she said yes but her body language said no. I'm all about respecting the other person. Sex is fun, but it's not so much fun that I'm willing to ruin another prson's life for it.

I don't ask. I never have. And frankly I have never had to since it was so obvious. But I have also declined many times to proceed if my partner just didn't seem to be into it. Its something you do with someone not do to someone.



Che I am truly wondering how that asking goes.

Can I touch your breasts?
Is it ok if I manually stimulate your genitals? Orally?
Do you want to (orally pleasure) me?
Is it ok if I "boink" you? Is cowgirl acceptable? How about doggie?


I know this sounds like a silly list and to me it is. But if you accept as I do that a person has the right to consent or not consent to any such acts and to withdraw their consent at any time, there has to be an obligation on the person that wishes to negate that consent to actually communicate their feeling. Otherwise, logically you would need a constant re-affirmation of that consent again and again and again. Or does a consent once given negate this requirement?

If the consent does not require constant reaffirmation, how is my situation where consent is taken from behavior ( her stripping or stripping me) any different? In either case there comes a point where you have to assume continuing consent unless there is some act to negate it.

Oh and do both parties have to get the consent of the other or if one party initiates something is THEIR consent implied?

I guess you could have both parties chant "yes yes yes" throughout but mouths are often otherwise occupied

	02-09-2004 21:54									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well then....the solution is to straight-jacket the whole of society, right? I mean, heaven forbid we actually allow people freedom of choice, even when that freedom leads to bad decisions. And why stop there? I'm sure we could fill the books with all sorts of "proper methodology mandates."

It is just as easy for a woman to say "not tonight" as it is for a man to ask.

One takes no more "effort" than the other. I see no compelling reason to MANDATE that one be done over the other, aside from our obvious ideological differences, which may or may not play a role in our differing views here.

-=Vel=-

	02-09-2004 21:58									#84
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because it's your responsibility to keep your ass out of jail, and all you need to do is ask a simple question. With that much on the line, you'd think it'd be a lot easier for guys to make a choice.

I'm with Vel on this one. I make my choice in choosing my lovers ( and now its one person hopefully for the rest of my days). I have never felt in any jeopardy on this issue ( I am a very gentle and non-intimidating person anyway)

I just think that given the right of a person to withdraw consent or to consent or not consent to any specific act, requiring a positive affirmation of that consent would require not one question but a string of them. To do otherwise is to assume consent without signs of negation or to assume it from behavior.

	02-09-2004 22:03									#85
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx It is just as easy for a woman to say "not tonight" as it is for a man to ask.

Except for the whole power relations thing. Try asking, it shows respect. Always strive to be a better person.

	02-09-2004 22:06									#86
	Suffering from ads?

There are many ways to "show respect," and this particular one is...rather weak, IMO. Sounds rather "rules lawyerish" to me, actually.

If I was dating someone who did this, I strongly suspect that she would not last long, as it would quickly get on my last nerve.

-=Vel=-

	02-09-2004 22:06									#87
	Put an end to popups!

quote: And this opinion is based on what knowledge?

I can have an opinion without knowledge!

	02-09-2004 22:07									#88
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd If he doesn't know if she wants to have sex, he shouldn't be having sex with her.

Does he need it in writing?

	02-09-2004 22:09									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

That is, I believe, the natural extension of what Che and others are sugessting.

After all, even if you explicitly ask, in the court room, it's just your word against hers.

Much better then, to get the consent in writing, signed permission slips by both parties, notorized by a witness, and signed by the lawyers of both parties named in said contract.

Right?

-=Vel=-

	02-09-2004 22:11									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Except for the whole power relations thing. Try asking, it shows respect. Always strive to be a better person.

What power relations thing? I like strong intelligent opinionated women and I married one. Equals got it? She knows I'd rather not do anything if she's not into it and she has no problem speaking her mind. I wouldn't have it any other way.


Respect ?? Thats a bullcrap way. I respect my wife 10 million ways and I totally respect her desires and have never forced anything ever. The question needs not be asked