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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
If she's screaming for him to stop then how can he think she was agreeing? |
If she was. If she was passive, not saying yes, but not saying no, he could have thought that meant compliance, when she viewed it differently.
Rape is not a matter of opinion. Forceing yourself on someone is forcing yourself on someone. However it is possible that the other person does not say no, for a variety of reasons (intimidated by someones fame/power, believes it's not there choice) and so sex proceeds, without her actively giving her consent.
It's possible that this women meets Kobe, is in awe of his fame/money/power, so does whatever she says, believing that she 'can't' say no to him. He thinks it's all consensual, as she doesn't refuse, but she feels she's been pushed into it.
I don't know if I believe that that's what happened, but without being able to prove how it did, and with the victim unwilling to testify, there seems little else they could do. It's possible it happened that way, it's possible it didn't, and Kobe's a lying *******. It's also possible that she did consent, actively, and then realised how much money she could get from a civil suit, so doesn't care about dropping the criminal suit, which would be harder to prove.
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Dr Strangelove
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Has anyone here actually heard her version of the incident? Did she state that she actually said "no" or something to that effect? I'd think that the prosecution would have wanted that, in order to have a semblence of a decent case.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Under old UK law, that would be legal, if she didn't say no. Under new UK law, you must make sure that the other person actively consents, otherwise it is considered rape. |
That could get a little silly particularly since "consenting" to one act is not necessarily consenting to another.
For instance was I sexually assualted when the woman began performing oral on me without asking me first. And how is that different than when I do the same to her? Have we assaullted each other since no one verbalized a consent and each of us performed acts without getting the express consent of the other?
Look I am all in favor of strong rape laws but assuming mental competence of both parties, whats that tough about requiring the dissenter to actually say something?
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
Why would the amount of sex she has matter? (or clothing, flirtatious behaviour...)
Rape cases are all too often arbitrations of conservative christian "morality", with defense lawyers arguing against women effectively based on how virginal they act. It's something that's been massively debated up here and some of the treatment the women go through in the court room is truly shocking. |
I agree. But in every criminal case, the defense must try to show that a witness is either mistaken or lying. In a rape case, if the jury believes the victim, its pretty much game over. Thats why attacking the credibility is pretty much standard practice.
I have no idea why her past sexual conduct was relevant here. Did she make any statements that she hadn't had sex in some specified time period prior to the Brant incident? Or perhaps she made a statement that she would "never" have sex with someone she just met?
Unless its something like that, I don't care if she banged the entire hotel staff the day before. IF she said no its no.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
For instance was I sexually assualted when the woman began performing oral on me without asking me first. And how is that different than when I do the same to her? Have we assaullted each other since no one verbalized a consent and each of us performed acts without getting the express consent of the other? |
If she said afterwards that she did not consent to you performing cunnilingus on her, then yes, that was a sexual assault. You performed an act on her that she didn't consent to, even if she seemed to enjoy it at the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
Look I am all in favor of strong rape laws but assuming mental competence of both parties, whats that tough about requiring the dissenter to actually say something? |
I agree. IMHO, if she says stop or no, and you don't, that's rape/sexual assault, depending on the act involved. However there is the grey area of grooming, even amoung adults, where a partner is left feeling they have no choice but to comply.
It's all about whether rape is continuing when she's said no or continuing when she hasn't said yes. The idea was to make the man more aware of the issue of consent, in requiring it specifically, as it is with requiring the man to check that she's over 16.
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02-09-2004 11:57
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