03-09-2004 01:02									#1
	Sign the pledge: Patch Civ3 or we'll wait for the bargain bin! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Maybe I'm just feeling pedantic today... it is old news that Firaxis is apparently abandoning Civ3 Conquests from further patching, leaving it with game-crippling bugs.

If I were truly ready to abandon Firaxis, I would argue for never buying another of their games again. But one of the things that makes the current situation so frustrating, is that we know Firaxis is capable of giving us what we want. Everything on our top 5 list of issues, so to speak, they actually got right at one phase of the game.

Firaxis seems to think that they do not need to fix up Civ3--they are assuming that their new projects are more important. I believe that we the fans, without rudness or complete abandonment, need to make it clear that ongoing support of previously released games is essential. Since Firaxis seems to be making it as a financial decision, we need to make a financial point to them.

Pursuant to that, I propose the following pledge:

I do not agree with Firaxis dropping patch support for Civ3 and until they revise that decision I pledge not to purchase another Firaxis game at full price.

Let's all wait for their new games to hit the bargain bin before we give them any more of our money. It's not financially justified to do otherwise, if they are released incomplete and abandoned with major problems remaining.

I'll keep a list of usernames here:

Gnome
Antrine
Tattila the Hun
Cataphract887
OzzyKP
Kingof the Apes
Niessuh
Switch
Mad Bomber

Anyone who agrees with me and wants on the list, follow up with a post that says "Put me on the list"... I welcome discussion of how this pledge could be re-worded to greater effect, or any words of wisdom that will knock me off this rant and get me to calm down

Last edited by gnome on 30-09-2004 at 04:02

	03-09-2004 03:43									#2
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Well gnome, you are expressing much of my sentiment, much of my feelings on this issue. To wit; I waited until Conquests to buy CIVIII, simply because of the 'editor' issue. CIVII editor spoiled my thinking/playing on what 'should' be available in a game.
Now, unless CIV4 sports a deluxe go get em, wondrous all encompassing, can't live without 'game editor'; that is also, easy to use (easier) and access to random event or AI sub-routines then I AM out of supporting Firaxis, except to bug them to 'release the Conquest code' to someone, anyone caring competent and prone to timely action.

So you have my vote!
One more year? Of limping along with Conquests, until we even know if CIV4 is smelling like a 'rat'? Gosh, at this rate, my Mod (unfortunately) is still in the running for being this Christmas' smash hit or next years wonder. And that is pathetic, not because my Mod is less than wonderful, but because a 'nobody' fan is competing with the 'big boys' just because of a too long lasting incompetence. Now that stinks!

	03-09-2004 05:26									#3
	Got spare money?

No way will I have enough fortitude to delay buying Civ4. I will fanboy out and get it ASAP, sight unseen. If it then sucks as Moo3 sort of did, I will be unhappy, but I have to take that chance.

A number of franchises fall into that category for me:

Homm
Moo
Civ
Disciples
Might and Magic
C&C
Warcraft
Space Empires

and maybe AoW.

	03-09-2004 05:44									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, you are on the front-lines then with this one (along with others I know), no problem though, it ain't the money with me anyway. It is having something beautiful that 'works'! I had patience, will have patience, besides I have 'payoffs'; modding. And within the next year I anticipate new wonders to hit the market. If not, you have a front-line seat ticket for the upcoming wonder (my mod), now with working title; 'how to mod to the top of the game designers' heap', or sub-titled, 'how to gain glory through Alice's Looking Glass as a back door'. Catchy eh,?

	03-09-2004 09:35									#5
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I have much admiration for anyone that does a serious mod.

	03-09-2004 12:28									#6
	Tired of ads?

I will buy Civ4 (I refuse to call it cIV; this title has yet to be earned), no matter what it costs (in reasonable limits of course), as soon as I restore my cravings to play TBS. This may or may not happen within the next five years. The presence of a halfway bugfree and enjoyable TBS game could speed this up, but oh well... At the moment it's a "sigh", when I think of PtW (fun killing RCP exploit which is hard to resist), and a "bah" when I think of Conquests.

	03-09-2004 19:46									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You know, I understand the problems some advanced players have with this game. I have run into frustrations even at my meagre playing level. I understand the advanced fan base and its analyses and feedback that have helped polish this game and make it even better. But sometimes the rhetoric sounds like I should feel guilty for enjoying the game at all, or at least go get "idiot" tatooed on my forehead. This is especially true when it comes down to "Do this or else" type rhetoric. Personally, being just as contrary-minded as many others I have observered here, whenever I am faced with a "Do this or else" converstation, my instict always leaps towards the "or else". Then again, maybe Firaxis/Atari is less intolerant of veiled threats. Then again, maybe that's the only way to get their attention. Maybe.

As for me, as I think about it, I think I need to go find a tatoo shop. After all, I'm still having fun. What's wrong with me?

	03-09-2004 21:05									#8
	Suffering from ads?

Sign me up.

	03-09-2004 21:33									#9
	Tired of ads?

Eris, mind I tag along for that tattoo? Could use one myself .

	03-09-2004 22:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 No way will I have enough fortitude to delay buying Civ4. I will fanboy out and get it ASAP, sight unseen.

Particularly, as the run up to the game gets closer, anticipation on boards like this become more tangible, screen shots and reviews start appearing, and buzz becomes louder and louder. As with C3C, I will buy it day one.

	04-09-2004 01:01									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

While I admire the ide of pettition, I'm just too weak willed.

	04-09-2004 02:08									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by eris You know, I understand the problems some advanced players have with this game. I have run into frustrations even at my meagre playing level. I understand the advanced fan base and its analyses and feedback that have helped polish this game and make it even better. But sometimes the rhetoric sounds like I should feel guilty for enjoying the game at all, or at least go get "idiot" tatooed on my forehead. This is especially true when it comes down to "Do this or else" type rhetoric. Personally, being just as contrary-minded as many others I have observered here, whenever I am faced with a "Do this or else" converstation, my instict always leaps towards the "or else". Then again, maybe Firaxis/Atari is less intolerant of veiled threats. Then again, maybe that's the only way to get their attention. Maybe. As for me, as I think about it, I think I need to go find a tatoo shop. After all, I'm still having fun. What's wrong with me?

Nothing. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game. Going through another phase of addiction now with a "flavor mod" I got from CivFanatics.

I just don't see myself paying full retail price for the next installment.

	04-09-2004 02:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by player1 While I admire the ide of pettition, I'm just too weak willed.

It's not even so much of a petition, as (I hope) an education for Firaxis.

They believe that it is financially sound to abandon a buggy but popular game. I wish to show that it is not.

	04-09-2004 05:47									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

why wait for the bargain bin if you dont want to pay?


put my name on,i would very much like a patch.and yes,i did buy the conquests versiann

	04-09-2004 10:48									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by gnome ... Going through another phase of addiction now with a "flavor mod" I got from CivFanatics. I just don't see myself paying full retail price for the next installment.

Rhye's of Civilization works well for me as a base. I have modified that (heavily) for my own purposes.

I wouldn't be "surprised" if the new all-in-one Civ3 Complete includes a new version of C3C as a surprise. Also, once CIV is released, I am sure I'll purchase it within a week (at most)!

	06-09-2004 22:22									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Wonder why we haven't seen a response from anyone at Firaxis on this?

	06-09-2004 23:05									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Probably because they have better things to do than check this thread.

But sign me up. Heck, I boycotted the original Civ3 because they didn't put MP in it. I finally bought it for $10 online a few months ago.

	07-09-2004 09:44									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'm still waiting for them to 'patch' Conquests to Mac

Go ahead and add my name.

	07-09-2004 10:04									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 No way will I have enough fortitude to delay buying Civ4. I will fanboy out and get it ASAP, sight unseen.

as much as I would like to join this petition, I too will be there asap to get a copy if Civ IV as soon as I can

firaxis/atari certainly have let the Civ community down, and I hope they know it

I expect that they just do not care sad but true

	07-09-2004 15:32									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot firaxis/atari certainly have let the Civ community down, and I hope they know it

They know it, but the question is indeed, do they care? Let's see ... ... they have your money. So you're right, probably not.

But I have good news for you. Civ4 will be bug free, guaranteed. You should preorder the limited edition in the gold box immediately.

	07-09-2004 15:49									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

you are a dry old fella

bug free - only if you drown it in ddt

	15-09-2004 09:05									#22
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 why wait for the bargain bin if you dont want to pay?

I'm sure there will be some that approach the problem this way--but I feel it would be irresponsible of me to advocate it. I actually do not want an anti-Firaxis position, perhaps just a "tough love" stance.

Come on, admit it, we all love the game, otherwise we wouldn't care so much.

	15-09-2004 09:26									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

gnome what do think of Firaxis having to go 3-D with CIV4? As a 'rumor' supports, the 3-D will come from 'Pirates' model. Is that game any good? Is it turn based 3-D? How is that workable. I wonder, is 3-D and board games even ideas that can work one platform conceptually? Why do I have a sinking feeling about all this, it seems to me that turn base games are two-dimensional, you know converted board games, and this is just part and parcel of its culture and appeal.

Any thoughts other than morbid?

Sincerely

	16-09-2004 08:21									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I 'morally' support Gnome's pledge because I find those bugs to be very annoying to have to deal with. Barbarians are useless as the game stands.

However, I can't promise I won't buy the game within a few months of its release. Especially if it gets good reviews here at Apolyton.

	16-09-2004 13:57									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Great idea, sign me up

	16-09-2004 19:57									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

Im way to weak willed. But it is a nice thought.

	17-09-2004 07:11									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

You have my vote. I can't think of anything less professional than leaving a game broken (In my opinion, worse than releasing a game broken). They don't need to make any improvements, or anything like that. All I ask for is a game without any glaring mistakes in code. Once that's fixed, the game is perfect, as far as I care.

Put me on the list. I can wait for a reduced price.

	17-09-2004 09:46									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Switch ... All I ask for is a game without any glaring mistakes in code. ...

Absolutely!
First, once Brian Reynolds and team abandoned Firaxis to form Big Huge Games, Firaxis was obviously in a financial situation which forced them to proceed with Civ3 with old code (only a few million lines of it) that no one was completely familiar with. This resulted in buggy, poorly designed code.
They should have sold futures on Civ3 (have us all purchase it in advance ) and rebuilt the code from scratch! The lesson was learned with Civ3.

Second, they should have sued Brian's posterior. This is the first time I have EVER advocated sueing anyone!

	17-09-2004 13:40									#29
	Suffering from ads?

Although this pledge is fundamentally valid, it's kind of lame nonetheless. So you collected what, a dozen votes? Or less? Face the sad fact, hardcore fans, although the lions share of posters of this and other related boards, make less than a percent of game buyers. The significantly bigger part consists of customers like this:

Kid: Oh thanks mum, a cool new game.
Mom: Blessed be the Lord, I don't have to care about this kid for the next two weeks, and that for a mere $40, how convenient.

Hardcore fans can be safely ignored in terms of sales statistics, and that's what counts. They may be a good source for feedback (if the company cares for QA at all) and welcome as cheap beta testers (pre and post release), but that's about it. Even if all of them boycott the next release (which most of them won't anyway, because they are ... well ... hardcore), good grief, new fans will emerge and step in the footprints of the old ones. And if they won't, no worries. The lions share of people that buy the game, will play it for a mere 2 weeks anyway and then abandon it, quality or not, so why waste resources on QA. And if the name of the company is finally in the dirt, we can just disband it and found a new one. Or buy a new, well known brand name, from a company that spent too much on expensive QA and went poof this way. Been there, seen that. Many times. People are so easy to fool.

Calls for boycotts are pointless and won't hurt the company. They will hurt yourself only. If I decide not to buy Civ4, it is not because I want to punish Firaxis, but because the predecessor generated enough displeasure in me to count it generally not worth to devote tons of my valuable spare time for an eventual successor, written by same company. This does not hurt me, as there are enough other games on the market from companies, that actually care for QA. I will however buy Civ4, if I see good reviews by people I trust and know to be critical minds, no matter the price.

Last edited by Sir Ralph on 17-09-2004 at 13:52

	17-09-2004 14:10									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Although this pledge is fundamentally valid.... I will however buy Civ4, if I see good reviews by people I trust and know to be critical minds, no matter the price.

you be quite the master of the word