07-09-2004 11:37									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Weither or not the chechens deserve independence isn't important. A significant portion seems to want it. The question becomes how much pain Russia is willing to endure and what measures they are willing to implement to keep Chechnyia apart of the Russian Federation. Apparently some Chechens are willing to comment terrible acts of violence against the weakest members of Russian soceity. What is Russia willing to endure? What is Russia willing to do. The chechens have made it pretty clear that they are willing to do.

Are you sure it were Chechens?
Over 90% of population of Chechnya came to elections and bulk of them voted "yes" for new constitution of the republic which says that Chechnya is autonomus republic of Russian Federation. Those people are tired of war and they do not want to live in Taliban-type state again.
If you think that those 32 motherf*ckers who captured school in Beslan and slaughtered children there represent entire Chechen people, that they did it for independence of Chechnya, that by commiting such acts, they fight for freedom of Chechnya, THEN how do you explain, that this gang consisted of "peoples" of ten nationalities, that 1/3 of this gang were Arabs and Chechens weren't absolute majority of this group?
All those Arabs, Ossetins, Ingushes, Kazakhs, Uzbecs, etc did this becuase they are in fact Chechens who fight for freedom of their country, OR perhaps because they are part of worldwide religious extremist group which declared Jihad versus unfaithfull heretics (the rest of civilized world)?

	07-09-2004 12:10									#92
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Sprayber, where do you get the idea that "a significant" portion of Chechens want independence? Was there a poll recently conducted in Chechnya?

Serb, is Russia about to change sides and join with the US in the war on terror?

	07-09-2004 12:12									#93
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Change sides?

They were fighting it long before we even declared it.

	07-09-2004 12:38									#94
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Ted, They are fighting a "local" war while the problem is much larger. On the international stage, they support France and together they have done much to hamstring the US efforts. I think it is about time that Russia dumps Chirac in favor of the US so that we can begin cooperating in this war.

	07-09-2004 12:40									#95
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Chirac

USA-Russian alliance

	07-09-2004 14:36									#96
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Ned,
Putin thought about bombardments of terrorist camps on Afghanistan territory before 9/11 and offered to Clinton to launch a joint military action agaist the Taliban before 9/11. Russia covertly supplied Northern Alliance who fought against Talibes with ammo, supplies and even tanks and other heavy armaments for years.
After 9/11, if you remember, Russia fully backed US in their attack agaist Taliban and offered help- we shared intelegence information, some of your forces were supplied directly through Russian territory, we also let you establish military installation in ex-Soviet republics- our backyard and our sphere of influce. Without clear "yes" from Moscow, non of the presidents of Middle Asia ex-Soviet republics would let your forces into their territories, since we have a treaty about collective defese with them and in general such things aren't allowed. But we did it, we've send them clear "yes" signal, despite we don't like the idea about presence of US army, in ex-Soviet republics, right near our borders very much. We fully backed you in Afghanistan, becuase it was a right move, and absolutely justified move and it was in our national interests as well. The Taliban supplied Chechen terrorists with money, weapons, and soldiers. It was in our interests to destroy this regime and it was indeed a fight agaist terrorism what US did in Afghanistan. And we are thankfull for destruction of the Taliban regime. But Iraq is a different case. No WMD were found, no links to Al-queda was found. Iraq was indeed a dictatorship, but Osama likes Saddam no more than he likes Bush or Putin. Saddam was evil, but he wasn't an Al-queda's friend.
I also think that our countries should fight on the same side, and I think they already do. It's our common enemy and both our countries suffered from terrorism too much. We should work together, whole civilazed world should work together to defeat this new menace,

but it doesn't mean anyone should violate international laws and use war on terror as smoke screen to reach their own goals, such as cheap oil, for example
Anyway, thanks for your support and solidarity during hostage crisis. We really apreciate that.

	07-09-2004 15:10									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ted, They are fighting a "local" war while the problem is much larger. On the international stage, they support France and together they have done much to hamstring the US efforts. I think it is about time that Russia dumps Chirac in favor of the US so that we can begin cooperating in this war.

The problem is indeed much larger. The international terrorism is like a fricking hydra with many heads, but a single body. We were fighting only one head of this beast and it doesn't helps much, because if at least a single head remains it resurects other heads. But sad reality is that Russia isn't a super power anymore. Technically a single Russian strategic bomber/missile cruiser/nuclear submarine have more than enough guided missiles to turn any terrorist camp to dust anywhere, but who would allow us to bomb those f*ckers worldwide? USSR could said- f*ck it and bomb away and if needed could fight alone agaist the rest of the world. Modern Russia can't.
What needs to be done, I think, is a global anti-terrorist treaty, which all countries of the world should sign. The treaty which says that terrorism is pure evil and a real threat to humanity and all goverments promise to do not give any aid to terrorists, any shelter, that they should destroy all terrorist camps on their territories, otherwise consequences should be serious. We need a global, joint anti-terrorist forces under UN banner. If some country violate the treaty and hides terrorists on their territory, this global anti-terrorist force should take action and destroy those camps. I can assure you Russians will prefer to eat grass and wear rubbish clothes, but supply this force with volunteeres and our best (and as you all know from my previous posts, Russian weapons really kicks ass) weaponry.
After Beslan it's the matter of our national pride.
There should be no country on Earth where terrorists could feel safe. That's the only way to win this war, I think.

	07-09-2004 15:26									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sprayber, where do you get the idea that "a significant" portion of Chechens want independence? Was there a poll recently conducted in Chechnya?

Yes Ned there was and enough thought it was a good enough idea to begin a uprising/rebellionuse your favorite word here. But if you don't want me to use the word significant I'll not use it just for you ok. Meanwhile the fact that Russia still is going to have to decide what it will can put up with and what it is willing to do.

	07-09-2004 15:33									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Are you sure it were Chechens? Over 90% of population of Chechnya came to elections and bulk of them voted "yes" for new constitution of the republic which says that Chechnya is autonomus republic of Russian Federation. Those people are tired of war and they do not want to live in Taliban-type state again. If you think that those 32 motherf*ckers who captured school in Beslan and slaughtered children there represent entire Chechen people, that they did it for independence of Chechnya, that by commiting such acts, they fight for freedom of Chechnya, THEN how do you explain, that this gang consisted of "peoples" of ten nationalities, that 1/3 of this gang were Arabs and Chechens weren't absolute majority of this group? All those Arabs, Ossetins, Ingushes, Kazakhs, Uzbecs, etc did this becuase they are in fact Chechens who fight for freedom of their country, OR perhaps because they are part of worldwide religious extremist group which declared Jihad versus unfaithfull heretics (the rest of civilized world)?

You never answered the question or even problably thought about it. Apparently there are enough mother****ers out there to cause Russia a sinigificant amount of pain and obviousely there has been little progress in the past ten years. And yeah you just named another big problem for you. Arab recruits are now going up there and fighting, as if they don't have enough hellholes to fight in.

So the question remains the same. What is Russia willing to endure and willing to do to the chechens in order to fight the problem. Cause your not going to "win" just like The US is not going to "win" the War on Terror without some radical and very messy options. Remember the Israelies? With all that they have done they are ruduced to building a wall. Without some kind of fundemental shift in muslim preceptions no one is going to win anything.

	07-09-2004 15:39									#100
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What do you suggest, surrender, laid down and die?

	07-09-2004 15:52									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Serb What do you suggest, surrender, laid down and die?

Killing everyone seems to be the more popular method

	07-09-2004 15:59									#102
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Terrorists must die, otherwise all non-terrorists will die. You can't be nice with terrorists, you can't negotiate with them, you can't give them something what they want and be sure that they will be nice now, they understand only force. They are not nice people, and you know what? They absolutely do not care about your or anyone else life, if you or anyone else are not one of them and do not fight for their goals. Anyone who isn't one of them is simply a dust, a pile of ashes. Those beasts know no mercy, as they demostrated recently.
THEY ARE NOT HUMANS. ANY PERSON WHO CAN COMMITE SOMETHING LIKE BESLAN IS NOT HUMAN. Human being can't act like this.
And all humans should fight those beasts till their complete extermination, otherwise those beasts will completely exterminate us.

Last edited by Serb on 07-09-2004 at 16:10

	07-09-2004 16:08									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Terrorists must die, otherwise all non-terrorists will die. You can't be nice with terrorists, you can't negotiate with them, you can't give them something that they want and be sure that they will be nice now, they understood only force. They are not nice people, and you know what? They absolutely do not care about you or anyone else life if or anyone else are not one of them and do not fight for their goal. Anyone who isn't one of them is simply dust, ashes. Those beasts know no mercy, as they demostrated recently. THEY ARE NOT HUMANS. ANY PERSON WHO CAN COMMITE SOMETHING LIKE BESLAN IS NOT HUMAN. Human being can't act like this. And all humans should fight those beast till they complete extermination, otherwise those beast would completely exterminate us.

While you are right in the facts that you can't negotiate with terrorists and that you must seek them out and kill them, you also must do something to change the conditions in which they were created or you will never accomplish anything. That or we brace ourselves for another long and bloody century and hope that technolgy doesn't finally switch sides over to the terrorist.

	07-09-2004 16:15									#104
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True.

	07-09-2004 16:16									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Serb True.

I'll be honest and say I don't know what we can do.

	07-09-2004 16:22									#106
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1) Kill the terrorists, destroy their camps and bases.
Then:
2) The same what was done with Europe after WW2- reconstruction and re-education of coutries which terrorists considered their home sweet home and where they drafted new fighters.
I see no other way to finish this new world war.

	07-09-2004 16:26									#107
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Serb, on al Qaeda and Saddam. Yes there were links between Saddam and al Qaeda, many, and over a number of years. There is just no hard proof that Saddam was linked in an operational sense to 9/11 -- no proof because the Czech report of Saddam's intelligence meeting with Atta in Praque was not confirmed. However, the people who say there is proof that such a meeting did not happen because Atta's cell phone was used in Florida at the same time that Atta was supposed to be in Prague have a real "leap of faith" problem.

Regardless of the historical links, there is no doubt that al-Zarqawi, who fought with Osama in Afghanistan, is leading the resistance in Fallujah. He has to be destroyed or else. We may be able to handle Iraq by ourselves, but any help would be welcome.

And, of course you helped with Afghanistan. Thanks.

	07-09-2004 16:55									#108
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WTF?

"MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has said that mid-level officials in the U.S. government were undermining his country's war on terrorism by supporting Chechen separatists, whom he compared to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Putin's charge, made in a meeting with a group of western foreign policy experts, came just days after hundreds of people, mostly children, died in the bloody end to the Beslan siege.

In the wide-ranging meeting which lasted almost four hours, Putin said he likes President Bush, calling him a friendly, decent, predictable person.

But Putin said each time Russia complained to the Bush administration about meetings held between U.S. officials and Chechen separatist representatives, the U.S. response has been "we'll get back to you" or "we reserve the right to talk with anyone we want."

Putin blamed what he called a "Cold War mentality" on the part of some U.S. officials, but likened their demands that Russia negotiate with the Chechen separatists to the U.S. talking to al Qaeda.

These are not "freedom fighters," Putin said. "Would you talk with Osama Bin Laden?" he asked.

Putin said the Chechen separatists are trying to ignite ethnic tensions in the former Soviet Union and it could have severe repercussions.

"Osama Bin Laden attacked the United States saying he was doing it because of policies in the Middle East," Putin said. "Do you call him a freedom fighter?"

Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement.

Asked about the U.S. presidential race, Putin was complimentary of President George W. Bush, saying he likes him. He is a friendly, decent, predictable person, but "it is not about personalities," Putin said."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ...n.us/index.html

	07-09-2004 17:01									#109
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Ned,
honestly, while I as most of Russians supported your action against the Taliban, because I believe it was a very good and just move- such regime as Taliban was created by terrorists and for terrorists, it was a true terrorist and religious extremists paradise, which should have been destroyed, I think your invasion in Iraq was a big mistake. I don't think Saddam allowed religious exteremists from al Qaeda to esteblish a single base on Iraqi soil. No doubt that he was an evil dictator, but from I heard he never liked AQ and it was a mutual feeling. Now of course AQ used the situation and send their fighters and recruiting officers in Iraq.

Anyhow, Russia (and many others) didn't agree about your decision towards Iraq, but I guess it doesn't mean we aren't allies in war against terror. We have to be allies after what happened in our countries, those f*ckers simply leave us no choice.

	07-09-2004 17:07									#110
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And what's so amazing Ned?
It's not the first time when terrorists who commited bloody terrorist acts against Russia are being called freedom fighters and granted asylum in the West.

Imagine Russia granting asylum to some f*cks from ObL team, how would you react?

It's the policy of double standards.

	07-09-2004 17:15									#111
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And from your article Ned:
"Putin also defended his government's decision to storm the school and said the hostage holders had begun shooting children out of boredom. "

WTF?
There was no decision about storm the building. Terrorists exploded two bombs (that's the reason for most of the casualties. You can't explode two bombs in small sport hall where over one thousand people being held and expect few casualties among the hostages) and started to shot escaping hostages at their backs. What the hell spetsnaz should do in such circumstances? Just watch? They returned fire to cover escaping children and entered the building to save wounded.
It's a perfect example of your media aproach- another LIE.
Nothing changes, unforunately.

Last edited by Serb on 07-09-2004 at 17:22

	07-09-2004 17:28									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Serb 2) The same what was done with Europe after WW2- reconstruction and re-education of coutries which terrorists considered their home sweet home and where they drafted new fighters. I see no other way to finish this new world war.

War on terrorism is a reactionary war. We need proactive war. War on religious extremism.

	07-09-2004 17:36									#113
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Religious extremism borns terrorism. Terrorism is their way of fighting. So if its called war on terrorism, its also means war on religious extremism, I hope. Otherwise war on terrorism means no sense, since terrorism is a mean and religious extremism is a cause.

	07-09-2004 17:36									#114
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Serb, Saddam was training al Qaeda from the mid '90s and was providing other kinds of support as well. Our 9/11 Commission report has lots of details.

As to the asylum, as best as I can tell, some immigration court in Kerry's home state of Massachusettes granted the terrorist leader asylum, and the US State Dept. dropped their appeal, for some God awful reason. I'll bet Bush was never consulted on this one, which is why Putin said "mid-level officials" when he leveled his criticism.

	07-09-2004 17:41									#115
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Do you think radical Islam should be allowed in Afganistan, now that the terrrorists have been chased out of there?

	07-09-2004 17:45									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Religious extremism borns terrorism. Terrorism is their way of fighting. So if its called war on terrorism, its also means war on religious extremism, I hope. Otherwise war on terrorism means no sense, since terrorism is a mean and religious extremism is a cause.

And, you know what can definetly kill religious extremism?

killing religion.

	07-09-2004 17:51									#117
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No, Azazel. One fights religious extremism with democracy. Look at what is happening in Iran, for example.

	07-09-2004 17:57									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Serb, Saddam was training al Qaeda from the mid '90s and was providing other kinds of support as well. Our 9/11 Commission report has lots of details.

If it's true and your Commission really can prove it, why it doesn't share this information with Russians and everyone else?
Why we never hear about al Qaeda bases in Iraq? If you have info share with us, but we need a strong evidences, since before the Desert Storm II, your leadership was absolutely sure that Iraq posess WMD, and after invasion you find nothing.
If it's really true I bet Russia, Germany and France will change their attitute toward invasion to Iraq imidiently.

quote: As to the asylum, as best as I can tell, some immigration court in Kerry's home state of Massachusettes granted the terrorist leader asylum, and the US State Dept. dropped their appeal, for some God awful reason. I'll bet Bush was never consulted on this one, which is why Putin said "mid-level officials" when he leveled his criticism.

Whatever, I don't know who in US makes desicion about granting of asylium, it is not important for me or our leadership. The fact remains- some terrorists hide in US, UK, Denmark, Germany and other European countries. And I believe if Russia acted in the same way, you would call us terrorist supporters and part of the axis of evil, and would be right, of course. Russia never gave shelter to the members of ObL team of international motherf*ckers who were wanted in US for their crimes (and in fact, iirc, but I may be wrong, we extradicted to you some AQ members you wanted in US). Why do you act differently if we are allies in war on terror?

	07-09-2004 18:01									#119
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September 6, 2004: The death toll in North Ossetia looks like it will reach 500, with 340 known dead and 180 missing. The Chechen rebels must be aware by now that their habit of taking large numbers of hostages. The Chechens, especially the faction led by Shamil Basaev, have been doing this since 1995 (and 1996 and 2002). It never works. The most the Chechens have ever gotten out of it is free passage for the hostage takers. The huge loss of life in North Ossetia brought condemnation even from the normally supportive Arab press. What the world found particularly horrendous was the killing of so many children. For two centuries, the Chechens have tried to defeat the Russians by being more savage. It never worked then, and it's not going to work this time either.

(taken from www.strategypage.com)

	07-09-2004 18:03									#120
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Serb, the information is in the public domain. The 9/11 commission report is published and summaries have been in the press for weeks. No one is hiding anything except, perhaps, media who do not report what the commission found for political reasons.