07-09-2004 18:04									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No, Azazel. One fights religious extremism with democracy. Look at what is happening in Iran, for example.

what is happening?

	07-09-2004 18:15									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Do you think radical Islam should be allowed in Afganistan, now that the terrrorists have been chased out of there?

Firstly, I don't think that those terrorists deserve to be called Muslims, that they teachings can be called a radical Islam. Those terrorists have nothing common with Islam and follows the corrupt teaching of Vahhabism. I saw many Muslims in my life and I meet some everyday in my job and they aren't cruel and violent people. And I can't believe one of them could act like those beasts did in Beslan. Islam is an old religion and at least in Russia Christians and Muslims co-existed together peacefully for many centuries. Russia never declared crusades and the same crap.
And I believe that -no. Vahhabism, shouldn't be allowed in Afghanistan or anywhere else. As for me, it's not even a religon. It's an ideology, unhuman ideology, just like nazism was.
And it should be banned everywhere, just like nazism was banned everywhere after the end of WW2.

	07-09-2004 18:16									#123
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The pro democacy types are ....

Well plan B.

	07-09-2004 18:21									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel And, you know what can definetly kill religious extremism? killing religion.

Of course, but vahhabism, as for me isn't a religion. As for me, as I've said, it's more like ideology. And this unhuman ideology should be killed, no doubt. Just like nazism was killed in WW2.

	07-09-2004 18:39									#125
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quote: Of course, but vahhabism, as for me isn't a religion. As for me, as I've said, it's more like ideology. And this unhuman ideology should be killed, no doubt. Just like nazism was killed in WW2.

Religions are a sort of ideology.

	07-09-2004 18:50									#126
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I meant that such religions don't have right to exist in any society. Even in societies that believe in freedom of faith. It's not about it being religion or someone's right to believe in what he whants to believe, it's about inhuman nature of this religion.
Vahhabism is inhuman ideology and inhuman ideologies that agitate for murder of inocent should be banned. And it doesn't matter where they took their strengh- in idea that some nationalities are supreme or some religions are supreme over the others. If they encorage their followers to murder the inocent- they should be banned everywhere.
Religious extremism should share the fate of nazism - worldwide recogonition of its inhuman nature and oblivion.

Last edited by Serb on 07-09-2004 at 18:58

	08-09-2004 00:32									#127
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quote: Originally posted by atomant September 6, 2004: The death toll in North Ossetia looks like it will reach 500, with 340 known dead and 180 missing. The Chechen rebels must be aware by now that their habit of taking large numbers of hostages. The Chechens, especially the faction led by Shamil Basaev, have been doing this since 1995 (and 1996 and 2002). It never works. The most the Chechens have ever gotten out of it is free passage for the hostage takers. The huge loss of life in North Ossetia brought condemnation even from the normally supportive Arab press. What the world found particularly horrendous was the killing of so many children. For two centuries, the Chechens have tried to defeat the Russians by being more savage. It never worked then, and it's not going to work this time either. (taken from www.strategypage.com)

	08-09-2004 01:11									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No, Azazel. One fights religious extremism with democracy. Look at what is happening in Iran, for example.

I don't think so Ned. If the religious extremists are the majority they will just create an islamic state. If they are the minority they will probably continue terrorism and fight for their own state.

	08-09-2004 01:13									#129
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Has anyone reported the news today that the Russians took their own hostages, the family of Chechen seperatists leaders?

	08-09-2004 01:15									#130
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Good for them.

The US does the same with Iraqi leaders.

As long as they don't hurt them.

	08-09-2004 01:20									#131
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They tried to use them for a trade from what I read. There were some terrorists at the school that were arguing to abandone the mission, but a bomb accidentally went off causing caos.

	08-09-2004 01:32									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think so Ned. If the religious extremists are the majority they will just create an islamic state. If they are the minority they will probably continue terrorism and fight for their own state.

Kid, even when there are guarantees of freedom of religion?

Regardless, I think my point still stands. Democracies are inherently peaceful. They do not attack their neighbors for the purpose of spreading their ideology for that requires a willingness to suppress dissent even within their own borders. Suppression of dissent by the majority is not democracy. Such a tyranny of the majority is called one-party rule, nay dictatorship, and is in this hardly democratic in nature even if it may be democratic in form.

Iran may be a very good example of a Islamic dictatorship masking as a democratic country. When I say democracy though, I mean the true democracy that respects minority views and even will allow them to come in the power if they have the votes.

	08-09-2004 01:34									#133
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Wow, just checking in after a few days away from news & internet...

This got BAD, huh?

Sorry to hear it. Serb - hang in there, man. I was pretty upset on 9/11 and the days immediately following it.

-Arrian

	08-09-2004 01:49									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, even when there are guarantees of freedom of religion?

Much more when they are free to do so. We don't want them to practice it. Giving them the freedom to do it is plain stupid.

quote: Democracies are inherently peaceful.

In Nediverse only. Your brand of democracy is actually very violent both domestically and internationally.

quote: Such a tyranny of the majority is called one-party rule, nay dictatorship, and is in this hardly democratic in nature even if it may be democratic in form.

When you make people free to set up their state you give them the freedom to set up any type of govt they want. Terrorists don't want a democracy. You can't force it on them.

quote: Iran may be a very good example of a Islamic dictatorship masking as a democratic country. When I say democracy though, I mean the true democracy that respects minority views and even will allow them to come in the power if they have the votes.

You want radical muslems to respect the views of minorities?

	08-09-2004 02:49									#135
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Serb, thanks for the account.

	08-09-2004 06:22									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They tried to use them for a trade from what I read. There were some terrorists at the school that were arguing to abandone the mission, but a bomb accidentally went off causing caos.

It's pretty common tactics for dealings with terrorists- to find their relatives to make them convince the terrorists to release the hostages, since who else could be more successful in negotiations with terrorists, if not their relatives?
FSB made a video where those relatives covince terrorists to release the hostages, they were about to send this tape to the terrorists, but explosions started. I don't see how those relatives could be called hostages. Once again it's a common worldwide practice to use relatives for negotiations.

	08-09-2004 06:49									#137
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The Fresno Bee here says that they were abducted.

	08-09-2004 07:11									#138
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The terrorists apparently made a short video of the scene in the gym during their occupation. In one segment on of the terrorists has his foot on a box or book and is talking to a boy and pointing to the box. There appeared to be wires coming out of it. I wonder if the terrorists had concocted some sort of "deadman switch". Perhaps when the first bombs went off the terrorist let his foot slip, and possibly detonated more bombs. The gym was completely destroyed. I doubt that the youingster, who appeared to be somewhere between 11 and 13, survived. How cruel to show a child how you're going to kill him.

	08-09-2004 07:19									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The Fresno Bee here says that they were abducted.

Who the hell is Fresno Bee?
Anyhow, considering all this lie western media spreading about Russians, I'm not surprised.

	08-09-2004 07:26									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The terrorists apparently made a short video of the scene in the gym during their occupation. In one segment on of the terrorists has his foot on a box or book and is talking to a boy and pointing to the box. There appeared to be wires coming out of it. I wonder if the terrorists had concocted some sort of "deadman switch". Perhaps when the first bombs went off the terrorist let his foot slip, and possibly detonated more bombs. The gym was completely destroyed. I doubt that the youingster, who appeared to be somewhere between 11 and 13, survived. How cruel to show a child how you're going to kill him.

Yes, it was a "deadman switch". FSB says that terrorists were real proffessionals: the deadman switch, bombs and mines were installed everywhere in the building and had a multiply reserved detonation system, which means that boms could be detonated from various parts of the building.

Some frames of this video:

	08-09-2004 07:27									#141
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	08-09-2004 07:27									#142
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	08-09-2004 07:34									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Good for them. The US does the same with Iraqi leaders. As long as they don't hurt them.

How exactly does hostage taking work without hurting the hostage?

	08-09-2004 07:36									#144
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"Do as we say, or we'll tickle your little sister!" ?

	08-09-2004 08:29									#145
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This tactic considered effective, thus used everywhere.
And if you'll put yourself on relative's place, perhaps you'll understand that relatives do not need to be forced by authorities to participate in negotiations, becuase those terrorists are their loved ones and they interested in solving the crisis without the strom when their loved ones terrorists could be killed with pretty high probability.

Last edited by Serb on 08-09-2004 at 09:22

	08-09-2004 08:39									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Serb More

This last photo, that's the boy to whom he showed the deadman switch. Bastard.

I've been doing a lot of school physicals for the past month. Some of the kids I've examined look a lot like the kids in the pictures on AP and Reuters news. A few days ago someone posted on one of the threads about the attack a photo of a little blond girl lying dead on a stretcher with her mother crying by the side of her head. I examined a girl who could have been her twin about a week ago. It makes me think.

	08-09-2004 09:27									#147
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I would to thank all people of the world who share our pain. US and some European countries already send planes with medicine to Beslan.
Thanks for your help and words of sympathy guys.:

	08-09-2004 09:40									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Good for them. The US does the same with Iraqi leaders. As long as they don't hurt them.

Do you really want us to go down that road? I'm all for getting tough on terrorist, but I don't really want to become them in the process.

	13-09-2004 07:53									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove This last photo, that's the boy to whom he showed the deadman switch. Bastard. I've been doing a lot of school physicals for the past month. Some of the kids I've examined look a lot like the kids in the pictures on AP and Reuters news. A few days ago someone posted on one of the threads about the attack a photo of a little blond girl lying dead on a stretcher with her mother crying by the side of her head. I examined a girl who could have been her twin about a week ago. It makes me think.

Doc,
It's a miracle, but this boy- 10 years old George Farniev survied. He has a knee injury, but he is ALIVE, despite he was just 4-5 meters away from bomb!
"I saw things, that cause my nightmares now. I was injured, but I survived. I still unable to understand why I didn't died" he told to British The Sun.
I was unable to find English version of this article, but from what I understood- he asked one of the terrorist to let him go to drink in nearby room and when he left, the bomb exploded, when he return the place was a bloody mess. All other people on this photo died, next thing he remeber is soldier who crried him away from the building. He told some shoking details, he was an eyewitness how terrorists shot 60 years old elder and 6 years old girl during first day.
It's a real miracle that he survived.
Russian version of the article:
http://www.rambler.ru/db/news/msg.html?pd=1&mid=5023722

	13-09-2004 08:07									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Do you really want us to go down that road? I'm all for getting tough on terrorist, but I don't really want to become them in the process.

I'm not sure you understand what they are doing.

It's the same as when the police go get a relative to try and talk someone down from jumping off of a building.

The US has already done this repeatedly in Iraq.