05-09-2004 23:07									#1
	AU601: Rhoth's Roman DAR II (playing against Beta) Tired of ads?

I figured that I had better start DAR II as I now have access to the saltpeter resource as well as information about an island that is not on the pangaea (as well as most of the pangaea itself mapped).

Since my last big trade in 310ad I have continued apace with my plans. I've been researching economics and on 390ad finished it up for a trade (as follows later). I'm continuing to build economic improvements in my cities which has made me the #1 GNP for quite some time now. On the military front I'm also the top guy, strong to everyone but Germany, and continue to produce knights for later upgrade to cavalry. My intention is to wait until I have a horde of cavalry and then attack Beta with it. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen. He might deflect the whole thing and I'll have to scrap my plans. We'll find out.

The other big news is that Ravenna finally finished building (the hard way) my Forbidden Palace, which upped my production and commerce levels even more.

On to the trades. I finished economics and opened up the advisor to find that music theory and democracy had now been discovered. I feel fairly safe trading away economics as I have had most of a university as prebuild for Smith's in Rome while none of the other civs have been building any wonders thanks to a cascade earlier. Persia is the only civ with democracy and won't trade for economics so I call up Germany who is the only one who has music theory and make a trade...

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	05-09-2004 23:09									#2
	390ad Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Unfortunately Persia won't give up democracy for anything short of both my techs along with 200gpt I don't need democracy (sinve I probably will never switch out of republic unless it's to communism), but I do need gunpowder so I make the trade.

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	05-09-2004 23:13									#3
	390ad Got spare money?

As of right now, I am 7 techs ahead of Beta. I know because he does not have education, gunpowder, or printing press, which are the catalysts for all the remaining techs at the moment. My goal is to make Beta work for every tech he gets by making sure that he can't trade for any of them with techs of his own. He needs to research it himself or buy it with his ready cash...thereby making him poorer. If that means giving up techs cheaply then so be it. But so far I've usually been able to get good value from my techs, or at least decent value, while denying Beta the chance to trade.

At the moment all the other nations but Beta know education, astronomy and printing press. Very soon I will be giving away gunpowder to the two remaining civs that don't have it so that he can't use it to get any other techs from them.

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	05-09-2004 23:15									#4
	390ad Put an end to popups!

And my last major trade of the day was to get gems back. I'm the current leader in population so Carthage denied me his gems for a while...but I can get them for at least 20 turns with this trade and thereby set my slider back to 0...increasing my science and ready cash even more.

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	05-09-2004 23:17									#5
	390ad Support Apolyton

And finally a look at my F11 screen. I'm currently leading in the important categories of GNP, MFG goods, and overall productivity. If only my family size were #1 then it would be even better.

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	11-09-2004 22:01									#6
	640ad Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's been a little while since I posted an update so here goes. I finished construction of Smith's Trading Company...catapulting me into a wonder-driven (Statue of Zeus for the military requirement, Smith for the commercial requirement) golden age, just as I wanted.

Since 390ad I haven't really done much other than build up. I've been working toward the largest military in the game (and I have it according to F3 where everyone is weak to me) but that isn't enough. I want a clearcut majority of both numbers and unit quality before heading after Beta.

On the research front I'm only a few techs away from the industrial era...a full 10 techs ahead of Beta. My evil plan has worked perfectly in that I've been able to trade with the AI for techs and give them my techs for more gold, etc. I've made sure that before Beta advances to his next tech I have traded/given away the next techs on the line to all the other civs. That way he has to work for every tech he gets by researching it or buying it from the AI. He can't just get a tech that one of the AI nations doesn't have and then trade it off for some of the ones he doesn't (like I've been doing )

On the diplomatic front my relations with the other nations have remained excellent with all of them being polite to me. I've maintained embassies and right of passage agreements with all nations with a two-fold purpose. 1. They are more likely to join me when I start my eventual war on Beta (and they couldn't join me without an embassy anyway ), and 2. It makes it more difficult for Beta to engage them in allying against me (not that it's impossible for him to get them to ally against me, but with a ROP in my favor and him having no techs to trade it will cost him quite a lot of gold).

Continued in a moment.

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	11-09-2004 22:05									#7
	640ad Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Here is a screenshot of my nation. As you can see, all but four cities are currently producing military units, with three others joining them soon after finishing marketplaces.

I haven't built a whole lot of improvements other than marketplaces, libraries, and barracks. Universities and banks would be nice, but they are expensive in a time when I want to be concentrating on my military for a shot on Beta. Speaking of that shot, I have a plan for it. I'll mention that later on when I'm closer to executing the plan. In the meantime I'm just building a bunch of units.

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	11-09-2004 22:09									#8
	Tired of ads?

One more thing I forgot to mention....as of this turn (640ad) the Germannics declared war on Beta. I didn't have anything to do with it, but I'm certainly not complaining. He might be able to get a leader out of it (I hope not ), but in the meantime the Germans will hopefully be diverting his attention and units while I continue to build up for my inevitable strike.

By the way...who can guess what my planned strike might entail from the above shot and my current build queues?

	12-09-2004 00:30									#9
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So mean, I like it.

	12-09-2004 05:23									#10
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The poor bagger. I already feel sorry for him. Clearly you don't intend the war to last long.

	12-09-2004 06:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 The poor bagger. I already feel sorry for him. Clearly you don't intend the war to last long.

Oh I'm sure it probably will last a while. I don't expect Beta to just roll over, even if I give him 50+ cavalry and a multi-pronged attack to chew on.

	12-09-2004 06:30									#12
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You will give it to him from different directions, so there's not much he can do, really. Also withs ROPs in place, reinforcements will come in fast. And as if that wasn't enough, Beta is way behind in technology. He's toast, admit it.

	12-09-2004 10:05									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 You will give it to him from different directions, so there's not much he can do, really. Also withs ROPs in place, reinforcements will come in fast. And as if that wasn't enough, Beta is way behind in technology. He's toast, admit it.

Not until he says. , "You win."

	13-09-2004 02:24									#14
	Remove this text

I didn't play AU601, but I am reading the DAR's with extreme interest; a question ocurred to me. Isn't that internal sea usable for naval operations? I did not see any player using it so far, and just saw for the first time you trying to build a navy - of sorts - in Caesarea. For me, it seems a nice 3rd route that could come handy when things get ugly and he dispatched resistance to north and south. With the large ocean option, you could install mayhem even with a small detachment.

Oh, I love sea operations.

	13-09-2004 04:15									#15
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pedro:

yes, it's an option and i've been using it to ship settlers over to former greek lands.

probably the reason why noone uses it for military transport is the location: rome is on the outer side of the torus, so inner cities are very corrupt. and in greek lands the inner sea may be nearer, but it's behind tons of jungle and wetlands - so unlikely to have productive cities there too.

and don't forget: galleys are quite slow and only carry 2 units. taking a RoP road through persia or around northern lands is probably faster... especially with armies, ACs, knights or cavalry.

	13-09-2004 04:16									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

roth: 50 cavalry should do the business. you may have some trouble against hilled-walled-bombard-aided-fortified-town-musketmen, but as soon as that perimeter is broken, nothing lies in your way.

don't forget that beta is probably throwing ALL his commerce into research to keep up a little bit. and musketmen are expensive. also, his borders are wide on both sides, so he'll have to spread his defences.

if he's in republic, he'll unlikely have more than 4 muskets per city in a surprise attack. in monarchy, maybe slightly more.

and bombard units may be very good in defence, but they only fire once per turn, so with large enough numbers, he'd run out of trebuchets very soon. they also are capturable, so i even doubt he's got too many (probably only, for softening up AI who attack in small waves)


edit: on your attack plan. it looks like you'll ship over some units by caravels or probably even galleons, once you've got physics and magnetism. but they won't be able to transport your whole force, so i presume your going to to a combined attack. a well defended cavalry strike force from the sea and a suprise rush with cavalry-only attack from land? am i close

	13-09-2004 04:43									#17
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf yes, it's an option and i've been using it to ship settlers over to former greek lands. probably the reason why noone uses it for military transport is the location: rome is on the outer side of the torus, so inner cities are very corrupt. and in greek lands the inner sea may be nearer, but it's behind tons of jungle and wetlands - so unlikely to have productive cities there too. and don't forget: galleys are quite slow and only carry 2 units. taking a RoP road through persia or around northern lands is probably faster... especially with armies, ACs, knights or cavalry.

Well, I thought on the long run, a Palace location change, communism, and that stuff.

Galleys aren't the best ship for that... Though 3 of them, with 3 muskets and a fast unit can really be boring. The inner Greek cities wouldn't be a new core, but more of a beach head of sorts... Besides, who likes seeing enemy units deep inside your territory, even being so few? With pillaging, that can be a real nasty thing...

Of course, all of this is for a little slower operation... RoP are faster and much more devastating, as you said and did.

	13-09-2004 10:42									#18
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf edit: on your attack plan. it looks like you'll ship over some units by caravels or probably even galleons, once you've got physics and magnetism. but they won't be able to transport your whole force, so i presume your going to to a combined attack. a well defended cavalry strike force from the sea and a suprise rush with cavalry-only attack from land? am i close

Something like that. I have almost enough galleons to transfer my main force. I've done a bit of scouting from Persian lands and it appears much of his main force is near the Babylonian and Persian borders. Therefore I intend to strike with my main force elsewhere in his lands. I'll keep you updated when it happens.

	16-09-2004 06:45									#19
	750ad Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My plans are proceeding apace and I intend to start my invasion in 5 turns with the first blows being dealt in the next 10. I've moved my timetable up slightly as I've noticed a trend recently. Beta has not had iron hooked up for a while now and hasn't been researching very quickly. I deemed it worth it to take a look at his capital to see whether he was building a huge cash reserve for horseman upgrade to knights. He doesn't have a huge reserve, but I want to catch him before he is able to build that reserve and upgrade. If I can catch him with a bunch of horses rather than knights then my job will be made easier. I will be going in with about 10 less cavalry than I had originally intended (~40) but with four more muskets that I intend to bunker down on his northern iron hill to keep him from building any knights. Denying him his iron and saltpeter is a large part of my plans.

Another interesting thing I discovered. Beta is also in his golden age just like I am...and I'm still outproducing him on every level. He has a larger empire than I do since I was blocked by other nations, but mine is more productive.

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	21-09-2004 08:00									#20
	840ad Full PM-box? Change here!

The invasion has begun...with a whimper.

Beta and I often chat on mIRC while playing the game and he has suspected for some time that I'd try to hit him over the ocean. He has been preparing for several turns by blocking all the landing zones with warriors, etc.

Per the picture below I had planned on four different landing zones. In the northwest I had four cavalry and eight musketmen preparing to land on his iron and also take out a saltpeter resource up there. My plan was to land on the mountain. That didn't work out as he had a unit there, but I was still able to land next to it. Also up there was my spearman spotter (to make sure Beta wasn't sending units at me through other's lands) also plunked down on one of his luxuries to deny it to him.

In the east, I had eight ancient cavalry that were preparing to land and wreak as much havoc with roads, etc. as possible.

The stack of five ancient cavalry and five legions was a planned event that he noticed a few turns ago. Originally I was fine with it because I hoped he would expect the attack from there and move units from his other coast and core.

But the main attack is where it really hurts. That consisted of 39 cavalry, 8 musketmen, 8 cannons, and 1 settler...and he completely blocked all my landing zones, especially the one I really wanted right on top of his other saltpeter resource. That galleon stack is now travelling south toward Persia to land there and fight my way up the coast.

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	21-09-2004 08:05									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

And a look at the F4 screen. Part of my strategy all along was sending everyone at Beta. That is why I cultivated trading friendships and right of passage agreements with everyone...and also to keep them from trading techs with Beta unless he bought a tech from one of them.

He thwarted my initial plans, but I still think I have the upper hand. We'll see how things play out.

It's a fun game!!!

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	21-09-2004 11:15									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In C3C, Workers do not block naval landings. I do not recall that being verboten in this scenario.

	21-09-2004 15:34									#23
	Suffering from ads?

jaybe: "verboten" didn't know you used that in english too, but it's actually a valid adjective

i also didn't know that workers could be captured by naval landings! i remember seeing aeson playing one of the AU games without a single unit on his mainland. he just "defended" the island with workers on every single tile...
are you sure about this fact?


rhoth:
beta sure needs a great upkeep for all those units. and he can't remove them to defend down south as that would open up space for invasions.

enjoy the feast

	21-09-2004 21:35									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sabrewolf is correct. Workers can block landings and Beta has a few workers blocking. Most of his blockers though are warriors. Shouldn't be too much trouble against cavalry...though last night I had a veteran cavalry go down to two hit points while attacking a defending horseman.

Beta still does not have military tradition, though he did have metallurgy right before my attack. I was able to cut one of his saltpeter resources, but the other one will take me several turns to be able to cut after being blocked from landing on or near it. Unfortunately that gives Beta the time to upgrade/build some muskets and cavalry if he gets military tradition before I have the chance to cut his remaining resource.

On the 'Friends of Rome' front, Beta was concentrating so much on trying to destroy my harrying force coming out of Persia that he left himself open and Persia took one of his cities. I only wish I knew how many of his forces were destroyed. All of my surviving units were damaged, but I'm not sure if he had retreating horseman that I can't see, or if his units died attacking mine.

	22-09-2004 00:13									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Aeson defended his beaches with workers BEFORE CONQUESTS. Also, the AI is reputed to not take advantage of abducting workers from beaches.

To invade a worker-only occupied beach, WAKE the ground units and assault as you would with Marines. I have done this for several months, and I just took the trouble to retest this with generic C3C 1.22.

"The AU is for learning"

	22-09-2004 00:15									#26
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Really? Hmm, I don't think I ever tried it by waking them before. I'll have to try that when I get home tonight.

Learn something new every day.

Thanks Jaybe. I've got something new for Beta tonight.

	22-09-2004 00:20									#27
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All right so my conscience is already invading me and I feel like I should probably warn Beta about this as he didn't know either (obviously). It would be unfair to take advantage of him with something I just learned only because of my DAR thread which he has no access to.

	22-09-2004 00:32									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I sent Beta an email with this new info so now if he does leave workers out on the coasts my conscience won't eat me up for using this new information (new to me anyway ) to land.

All the other ways I've been taking advantage of him are things I know that he would have done to me if he had the chance (taking away all tech trading possibilities with the AI, setting all the AI nations on your opponent at once, etc.).

	22-09-2004 00:47									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The best way to teach is to demonstrate! You should have accompanied your workers-on-beach-are-vulnerable message with a demonstration by taking one of his workers (with a single, low-value unit). It would have driven home the message and you would have had the practice!

	22-09-2004 00:51									#30
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I guess I'm just too nice.