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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
what about homeless children? just asking if anyone homeless bothers you, not on topic. |
Do I feel bad for them? Yes. Do I give them money? No, nor am I likely to while I still pay taxes for social programs - that's forced charity, and it prevents me from being able to afford to give voluntarily without messing with my lifestyle. Would I help people in the absence of coercion? In some circumstances, sure.
But I know for a fact there are jobs available. I work at Best Buy, as you probably know. In the past 6 months, my store has hired (and turned over, and re-hired, etc.,) probably 60+ people. It's the same in the Best Buy closest to me. That's just one company. There ARE jobs out there, and ultimately, that's why I don't tend to feel all that bad for homeless people.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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quote:
In the name of making the elderly independent from their families we've made them dependent on government. I guess in a broad sense, that's the difference between left and right. |
explain...
the way i see it, the moral decay of society necessitates gov't intervention.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
yeah well it doesnt work like that... you're lucky if your parents take care of you as a child to begin with |
*shrug* My parents took care of me - and they were divorced. Is that lucky? No, I don't think so - as Ben said, that's the way it's supposed to be. Sure, some parents don't take care of their kids, but that doesn't mean that because of that, I can or should be able to be made into an involuntary long distance foster parent (through forced "donations").
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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Dave:
an 85 year old woman can't work at best buy...
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Nope, but I see 'em at Walmart all the time.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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quote:
*shrug* My parents took care of me - and they were divorced. Is that lucky? No, I don't think so - as Ben said, that's the way it's supposed to be. Sure, some parents don't take care of their kids, but that doesn't mean that because of that, I can or should be able to be made into an involuntary long distance foster parent (through forced "donations"). |
you're an *******, dave...
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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Tass:
quote:
If people are dying in the streets, then clearly god wants them dead or else he'd give them food |
mana... not food... mana...
don't you Mormons read your scripture?
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I would, which is why the title is ironic. The original social contract comes between families, where the children take care of the parent when the parent gets old, as the parent took care of the children, when the children were young.
No government in there, eh? |
Ah no, that's filial responsibility.
The social contract is the concept that we have a moral obligation to take care of our neighbours and we benefit from doing so.
Despite the conservative propaganda, the government is the most efficient way for organising these social services. The Canadian health care system is far more cost effective than the privately run health care in the US.
Of course, there are always people who would turn a blind eye to someone in trouble; the type who will stop and stare at a car accident, but do nothing to help.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
you're an *******, dave... |
You're the one in favor of forcibly taking my money? Who's the *******, again?
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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quote:
You're the one in favor of forcibly taking my money? Who's the *******, again? |
in real limited amounts... just so the little children won't be starving... i dont see that as too much.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Despite the conservative propaganda, the government is the most efficient way for organising these social services. The Canadian health care system is far more cost effective than the privately run health care in the US. |
Perhaps, but if you need a complicated operation or transplant, or a specialist, or if you want to go into serious medical research, or if you want to learn to be a top quality doctor, then there is no doubt that you will be coming to the US, to either receive the care or learn to give it.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Right, and I suppose you've walked a mile in their shoes. |
That doesn't change the fact that their are jobs available, even if they may seem unpleasant.
quote:
I feel bad sometimes when I get a job, because I know there are others who need it more. |
Why should you feel bad about it? You had the motivation to do what you needed to do, in order to secure yourself the lifestyle that you want. You were looking out for yourself, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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Dave's fantasy world would be so horrible... streets filled with begging homeless 7 year olds... then the truck will come by to pick up some of the girls and boys to be legally fondled and sexually abused by perverts who pay premium dollars for the service but the children get pennies...
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:24
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quote:
That doesn't change the fact that their are jobs available, even if they may seem unpleasant.
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Again, walk a mile in their shoes before being so quick off the mark.
Consider one thing. How often does someone get paid working for best buy? What if they don't have a place to live? How are they going to get cleaned up enough so that they will be able to get the job, and hold the job without having the money for a place to stay, and to get to and from the job, plus to pay for their own food in the meantime, so that they have the energy to work?
If you have to wait two weeks, this is all a significant burden to getting and keeping the job.
Suppose the job says to submit a resume. Well, how are you going to do that without a computer? Go to public library, and prepare on to be printed off? Again, that takes time, and money, because what if you don't live anywhere near the public library?
They charge for prints, and you don't have the money to pay for them, so you can print off a resume, to look for work, so you can get a job, and not have to be on the street anymore?
quote:
Why should you feel bad about it? You had the motivation to do what you needed to do, in order to secure yourself the lifestyle that you want. You were looking out for yourself, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Maybe because I know that he needs the job more than I.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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Dave:
you have already made it clear that you don't give a damn about homeless children... the world is bound to have at least a handful of homeless children (more like millions)... you're in favour of legalizing prostitution... i'm not seeing how you wouldn't be in favour of the world i described. you dont care about impoverished children and you want prostitution legalized. what i described is the inevitable result.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Consider one thing. How often does someone get paid working for best buy? What if they don't have a place to live? How are they going to get cleaned up enough so that they will be able to get the job, and hold the job without having the money for a place to stay, and to get to and from the job, plus to pay for their own food in the meantime, so that they have the energy to work? |
All valid questions. Let's see, I'm sure they can stay at a YMCA for a week or two, but in any case, that's not the point. Why are they in their current situation? They got laid off from their old job, perhaps? Well, obviously they didn't try too hard to get a new one - or maybe weren't willing to accept a pay cut. I don't know - the answer isn't the same for everyone. Are there some people out there who simply have no chance to hold down a job? Probably. Does that entitle them to anything they don't earn? Certainly not.
Why someone who doesn't work is entitled to something I only get because I'm working is beyond me.
AS,
quote:
you have already made it clear that you don't give a damn about homeless children... |
Actually, you're assuming that. I may care, but I also have to look out for myself. I firmly believe that everyone looking after their own interests (ie, being "selfish") leads to the best result.
quote:
you're in favour of legalizing prostitution |
Yep, but not rape or sexual assault.
quote:
you dont care about impoverished children and you want prostitution legalized. what i described is the inevitable result |
Yes, and the inevitable result of having any amount of freedom is that someone will use it to hurt someone else. That's what laws and law enforcement is for - I'm not an anarchist. Just because I favor the legalization of all victimless crimes doesn't mean I favor legalizing crimes that have actual victims (which is redundant, a crime has to have a victim for it to really be a crime, at least logically).
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
yeah right... like that happens... |
It does all over the world, or at least has up until the welfare state appeared en force.
quote:
yeah well it doesnt work like that... you're lucky if your parents take care of you as a child to begin with |
Notice how you're describing the current state of affairs under a welfare state? See a possible connection?
quote:
explain...
the way i see it, the moral decay of society necessitates gov't intervention. |
That's counter-intuitive, if the population is morally decaying, then the politicians aren't going to be any better, probably much worse. Look at how these people lie about each other to get elected. So, we have the chicken and egg question... I don't know which came first, the politician tempting voters with pay-offs under the guise of "social contract" or people demanding the state give them other people's money, but it doesn't really matter.
When were the first major social programs created? The Depression? What caused that? The government? Notice how the most "decadent" decade in this country's history - the Roaring Twenties - was induced if not created by a drug war? Elevating the state to the level of deity by presuming government can "save" our souls is a path to hell paved with good intentions...
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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BK,
quote:
Maybe because I know that he needs the job more than I. |
OK, then quit and free your job up for someone else. Of course, that "someone else" you're worried about won't get the job - they either can't get the job, as you seem to focus on, or simply won't try to get the job, as I focus on. Either way, though, the job will simply go to someone else like yourself. End result? You screwed yourself out of a perfectly good job because you feel bad for people who have less than you do. How does this help those people? It doesn't.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Eh?
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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quote:
I firmly believe that everyone looking after their own interests (ie, being "selfish") leads to the best result. |
children can't look out for their own interests the same way you can...
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08-09-2004 08:47
In the name of making the elderly independent from their families we've made them dependent on government. I guess in a broad sense, that's the difference between left and right.
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