08-09-2004 07:37									#1
	The Social Contract? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was just watching Pete Petersen on MSNBC talking about how social programs are killing us and he put the "social contract" nonsense to rest. This social contract is an ambiguous (intentionally I believe) "justification" for a variety of social programs that we "owe" to others as part of this "contract".

The problem: social spending is bankrupting the country.

We're something like $20 trillion in debt because of future outlays for entitlement programs, etc... So Petersen "asked" his granddaughter if she agreed to adults leaving her with all the higher taxes to pay for what we wouldn't pay ourselves.

	08-09-2004 07:39									#2
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If you don't spend money on social spending, what the hell else are you going to spend it on?


Oh yeah, more bombs. yay.

	08-09-2004 07:40									#3
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No one has ever said the social contract is a actual thing. It is always been an abstraction, and explained as something needed for an ordered society.

	08-09-2004 07:42									#4
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Weve had it in the UK since the 30's, whether it's considered a good thing or not,well IMHO, it is!

	08-09-2004 07:46									#5
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Bombs and tax rebates

	08-09-2004 07:49									#6
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Maybe you Brits don't pile up debt like we do, the problem here is that future generations we'll "educate" in government schools to embrace this "contract" are being stuck with our promises of future spending. It's one thing to force your fellow man to pay for what you want from government, it's worse to burden your own children.

	08-09-2004 07:52									#7
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If the bombs will protect me and my family, I'll help pay for them.

	08-09-2004 07:57									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker If the bombs will protect me and my family, I'll help pay for them.

So you'll only pay for them if they help you socially?

And you expect other people to pay for stuff to defend you?

****ing commie leach.


Or...


But you won't pay for services that will help protect you and your family? It has to be in the form of an explosive for it to be accepatble to you?

	08-09-2004 07:59									#9
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you libertarians are so silly...

	08-09-2004 08:00									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Maybe you Brits don't pile up debt like we do, the problem here is that future generations we'll "educate" in government schools to embrace this "contract" are being stuck with our promises of future spending. It's one thing to force your fellow man to pay for what you want from government, it's worse to burden your own children.

No were in the same boat, the pension contributions made by workers today are paying retired peoples pensions today.

It's a 'pensions timebomb' , weve got a small workforce that needs to support a lot of retired people.

	08-09-2004 08:11									#11
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FDR was such a clever man for keeping the welfare state going... we can't stop s. security now because the old timers already paid for it and it wouldn't be fair if they didn't get their money back.

	08-09-2004 08:21									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer FDR was such a clever man for keeping the welfare state going... we can't stop s. security now because the old timers already paid for it and it wouldn't be fair if they didn't get their money back.

	08-09-2004 08:23									#13
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The thing is, all the old debts can be just written off anyway. Like say the global economy gets a bit poopy and then collapses. So a new money standard is created [probably backed to make people value it], all old money is worthless.
All the accumulated "wealth" is still around, the fences, factories, skyscrapers dont disappear because all savings, debts and investments have been written off. It's just a matter of reallocating resources to people under the new system. How that works really depends who has power after the revolution.

For example lets say the Goverments retain power somehow and sieze all assets, issuing new currency, running a social credit style economy. Just like that, all the national debts are gone. Theres no debt for the children to pay, and they get to enjoy all the infrastructure.

The thing is, those who currentely have the money, that is the tiny %age of the population who control a large %age of the wealth, are going to fiercely resist a "wipe the slate clean scenario", so the only way it can happen is everyone loses faith in the old money, thus stripping the very wealthy of their power. (but theres really nothing stopping them from re-accumulating power under the new system)

	08-09-2004 08:25									#14
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i'm not much of a fan of social security but we got our hands tied on this one. nothing we conservatives or yall libertarians can do about that. the democrats were clever on that one.

	08-09-2004 08:30									#15
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quote: So you'll only pay for them if they help you socially?

Bombs aren't a social program, they help protect me from people who would kill me.

quote: And you expect other people to pay for stuff to defend you?

Nope, did I say that?

quote: ****ing commie leach.

You're projecting.

quote: Or... But you won't pay for services that will help protect you and your family? It has to be in the form of an explosive for it to be accepatble to you?

I've decided bombs help protect me and my family, I have also decided working so somebody else's kid can learn from the state to impose this "social contract" on my kids in the future doesn't protect me and my family.

	08-09-2004 08:31									#16
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We could pay for it ourselves, we just choose not to. Sticking our kids with the debt is more palatable then raising taxes.

	08-09-2004 08:32									#17
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quote: We could pay for it ourselves, we just choose not to. Sticking our kids with the debt is more palatable then raising taxes.

in the long-run, we're all dead...

i'm with keynes on this one. the govt can spend as much as it wants. capitalism is an artificial construct.

	08-09-2004 08:34									#18
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quote: i'm not much of a fan of social security but we got our hands tied on this one. nothing we conservatives or yall libertarians can do about that. the democrats were clever on that one.

Uh, sure there is.

1)Cut off any future benefits to anyone not already paid into the system. That is, once everyone who has paid into the system gets their money back, the system goes away.

2)However, liberals claim over and over again that the money you put into SS is not "your money" - that's how they justify it, after all. It's neither yours now or yours when you retire - it isn't saved for you. It goes into the general funds. This being the case, if we just cut off Social Security tomorrow, then no one is out any of their own money, right?

So which is it? Is it your money or isn't it? If so, then why can't I do as I please with my money, and if not, then there's no problem cutting off benefits immediately, from a fairness perspective, now is there?

	08-09-2004 08:34									#19
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quote: i'm not much of a fan of social security but we got our hands tied on this one. nothing we conservatives or yall libertarians can do about that. the democrats were clever on that one.

What if we reach a point where we young folks need to pay 101% of our income in order to keep social security going?

Then the whole thing collapses.

Another thing is when the young people stop paying into social security, because they have lost faith in the system. Then you have a real problem. Sure the money that the other folks put into social security should be given to them, but that money has already gone to the old folks before them.

	08-09-2004 08:35									#20
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Bingo! There is something morally bankrupt about that... A natural consequence of the re-distribution of wealth mentality?

	08-09-2004 08:36									#21
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As to the "guns and butter" argument, General Ludd, I don't think that Berzerker supports increased defense spending, so you're arguing against a strawman. I know that I certainly don't. "Extra" money freed up by eliminating social programs should simply go back to the taxpayer, so that they can provide for themselves.

We don't even need our CURRENT military force levels to "protect ourselves" - conventional military forces don't stop terrorist attacks, so forget that argument, and our current conventional force level is not needed to deter state-vs-state aggression - that's deterred by a number of things, such as the threat of economic collapse, nuclear weapons, etc.

	08-09-2004 08:38									#22
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quote: Sure the money that the other folks put into social security should be given to them,

Only if you believe that money paid into Social Security is actually set aside for or guaranteed to you, in the future. Hint: It's not.

	08-09-2004 08:39									#23
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quote: Only if you believe that money paid into Social Security is actually set aside for or guaranteed to you, in the future. Hint: It's not.

I make that point already, David.

	08-09-2004 08:40									#24
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quote: 2)However, liberals claim over and over again that the money you put into SS is not "your money" - that's how they justify it, after all. It's neither yours now or yours when you retire - it isn't saved for you. It goes into the general funds. This being the case, if we just cut off Social Security tomorrow, then no one is out any of their own money, right? So which is it? Is it your money or isn't it? If so, then why can't I do as I please with my money, and if not, then there's no problem cutting off benefits immediately, from a fairness perspective, now is there?

Peculiar ain't it?

Logic strikes again...

	08-09-2004 08:41									#25
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by the way... would anyone here be bothered by having a whole lot of homeless seniors begging in the streets?

	08-09-2004 08:42									#26
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Not really - I pass tons of homeless people in Austin everyday. As long as they don't try to wash my ****ing windshield, I pretty much ignore them.

	08-09-2004 08:43									#27
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quote: by the way... would anyone here be bothered by having a whole lot of homeless seniors begging in the streets?

I would, which is why the title is ironic. The original social contract comes between families, where the children take care of the parent when the parent gets old, as the parent took care of the children, when the children were young.

No government in there, eh?

	08-09-2004 08:45									#28
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Dave:

what about homeless children? just asking if anyone homeless bothers you, not on topic.

Ben:

quote: I would, which is why the title is ironic. The original social contract comes between families, where the children take care of the parent when the parent gets old, as the parent took care of the children, when the children were young.

yeah right... like that happens...

	08-09-2004 08:46									#29
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quote: yeah right... like that happens...

That's the way it's supposed to work.

	08-09-2004 08:47									#30
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yeah well it doesnt work like that... you're lucky if your parents take care of you as a child to begin with