08-09-2004 09:42									#91
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quote: It's possible to opt out of Social Security. A job I applied for in Orlando doesn't make payments to SS, but instead has their own retirement plan. I don't know the extent of the details however.

Sorry, but it isn't possible to opt out as far as I know. If your job doesn't take out the taxes that it's supposed to, you are still responsible for them.

Now, it's possible that that job pays the SS taxes for its employees, but I'm not aware of any scenario or situation in which I can opt out of Social Security. If you know more details, I'd be VERY interested.

	08-09-2004 09:43									#92
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quote: But that's exactly what you do when you support and vote for government social programs. You force me to help others.

Uh, where do you see me supporting social security in this thread?

	08-09-2004 09:43									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker chegitz - Life doesn't improve because of social spending, it improves because of advancements in technology. And social spending reduces research and production...

Incorrect. Old people were living on the streets and eating cat food. Improvements in technology had nothing to do with fixing that situation. Making sure they had a government funded pension did. Technology may make life better in the future, but cash in the hand makes life better right now, and old people only got right now.

	08-09-2004 09:43									#94
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I don't, I just want to be clear, and have it on record that Ben Kenobi does not support government mandated social programs.

	08-09-2004 09:44									#95
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Sorry, but it isn't possible to opt out as far as I know.

I emphasized the relevant part. It was the Orange County Library System, so I assume they weren't pulling anything shady.

	08-09-2004 09:44									#96
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I'm against social programs in theory. But now we have them, it would be foolish to get rid of them.

And some statistics do seem to show social programs reduce crime rates...

I say we keep what we have, and don't increase taxes to make any more.

	08-09-2004 09:44									#97
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quote: but cash in the hand makes life better right now, and old people only got right now.

Of course, they had their whole lives to plan for retirement, they just, for whatever reasons, didn't do so.

	08-09-2004 09:45									#98
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quote: I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but the vast majority of parents are not "neglectful and abusive". If yours were, I'm sorry, but most parents are not

hahaha... come to my neighbourhood and point out parents who are not neglectful and abusive... you'll be lucky to find a single parent who loves his/her kids...

	08-09-2004 09:45									#99
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quote: I emphasized the relevant part. It was the Orange County Library System, so I assume they weren't pulling anything shady.

Fair enough. If it's possible, it's possible, I just have never heard of it.

	08-09-2004 09:46									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer the 1960's was the cause of moral decay, not the welfare state.

Moral decay!

	08-09-2004 09:46									#101
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quote: hahaha... come to my neighbourhood and point out parents who are not neglectful and abusive... you'll be lucky to find a single parent who loves his/her kids...

OK smartass - come to my neighborhood and point out parents who ARE neglectful and abusive to the extent you are describing. I bet you'll be "lucky" to find even a couple.

We can go back and forth like that all day, but the relevant point is that ON THE WHOLE, the majority of parents - the great majority of parents - are not abusive.

	08-09-2004 09:48									#102
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Of course, they had their whole lives to plan for retirement, they just, for whatever reasons, didn't do so.

Or they did and something happened which kicked the chair out from under them, they kids died or were in poverty or refused to help, the economy went under and their retirement was wiped out. Sure would sucked if you retired in 2001, what with stock prices collapsing. My 401K lost 60% of its value. Good thing I have thirty more years to rebuild it. At least, no matter what, I have SS to rely on.

	08-09-2004 09:49									#103
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quote: We can go back and forth like that all day, but the relevant point is that ON THE WHOLE, the majority of parents - the great majority of parents - are not abusive.

where the hell am i living? it can't be america then!

	08-09-2004 09:51									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer where the hell am i living? it can't be america then!

Philidelphia is not America. It is a shithole. You make the classic conservative mistake of looking around you and assuming what you see is universal. Having lived all over the country, I can assure you that most of the country does not live like your urban hell.

	08-09-2004 09:51									#105
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chegitz,

quote: Or they did and something happened which kicked the chair out from under them, they kids died or were in poverty or refused to help,

Hey! I want to be able to exercise that same option!

quote: the economy went under and their retirement was wiped out.

Very possible. Again, though, I fully recognize there are situations in which a person can be poor due to no great fault of their own. I just don't see how that automatically entitles them to money I earned.

quote: At least, no matter what, I have SS to rely on.

Unless it goes under before then (or, unless someone like me manages to get rid of it).

	08-09-2004 09:51									#106
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AS -

quote: where'd you get that from... i was just pointing out that the welfare state didn't cause moral decay... we had moral decay in the 20's before the welfare state and we had great moral strength in the 50's with the welfare state... the 1960's was the cause of moral decay, not the welfare state.

Takes a while, one or two decades are not enough for the flaws with a welfare state to show up. The welfare state was still very small in the 50's and out of wedlock births still manageable. You said we are morally decaying, yet we've had several decades now of this ever growing welfare state which you claim enhances morality...

chegitz -

quote: And people lived shorter, poorer, and more miserable lives. Oh, let's go back to the feudal system.

Because people owned the fruits of their labor or because someone else kept taking it away? That's like saying Pharaonic Egypt dis-credits socialism... These peoples had a different "social contract", to serve the needs of the their rulers. Hey, the more things change the more they seem the same...

	08-09-2004 09:52									#107
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AS,

che said it as well as I could. Inner cities are not mainstream America.

	08-09-2004 09:57									#108
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Unless it goes under before then (or, unless someone like me manages to get rid of it).

Despite conservative predictions, SS will neither go under nor be abolished. No politician will ever let their constituants' grandparents be kicked out onto the streets.

	08-09-2004 09:58									#109
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Yeah, you can always trust politicians to pander to special interest groups with money and vote-buying power

	08-09-2004 09:59									#110
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berserker:

quote: You said we are morally decaying, yet we've had several decades now of this ever growing welfare state which you claim enhances morality...

are you and dave stupid? where are you pulling this stuff from? where did i say the welfare state enhances morality. i was just saying the existance of a welfare state is irrelevent to morality... it's comparing apples and oranges. welfare can, however, help some of the effects of moral decay (such as poverty) but thats about it. theyre two different things.

	08-09-2004 10:02									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker chegitz - Because people owned the fruits of their labor or because someone else kept taking it away?

While serfs had god-awful lives, even yoeman peasants didn't have lives we'd consider enjoyable. ****, just look at the plaines settler stories to see what a hell being a free land farmer was in the 19th Century.

quote: That's like saying Pharaonic Egypt dis-credits socialism...

That's like saying frogs discredit fish. One has nothing to do with the other.

quote: These peoples had a different "social contract", to serve the needs of the their rulers. Hey, the more things change the more they seem the same...

That's captalism for you. The only difference is that today you have a choice of masters and the master/salve relationship is masked with a money payment. You still don't own the fruits of your labor.

	08-09-2004 10:03									#112
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd But that's exactly what you do when you support and vote for government social programs. You force me to help others.

No, you are required to indirectly pay for the benefits you received.

You received a free pre-university education, now it's your turn to pay for some of the costs.

You live in a society that is relatively free of mass contagions like the plague, small pox and typhoid. That's a direct benefit of public health care that helps prevent minor illness from developing into major illnesses.

These are two examples, but there are many more.

And if you want to skip out on the bill and dodge your responsibilities then you can. You are free to move to another country.

	08-09-2004 10:04									#113
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yeah, you can always trust politicians to pander to special interest groups with money and vote-buying power

That's their job, pandering to their "special interests," i.e., their constituants. Why is doing what the majority of people who voted for you considered pandering to special interests, but doing what business wants isn't?

	08-09-2004 10:04									#114
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quote: i was just saying the existance of a welfare state is irrelevent to morality...

Whoa! Morality is the essence of my opposition to the welfare state!

I believe that when the government takes my money and gives it to people who didn't earn it, and says that if I don't comply I'll go to prison, that is functionally the same as YOU doing it. I see no fundamental difference. You see, I think the only person with a valid claim on my property is me, until I decide otherwise. Reasonable, I would think.

I also believe that stealing is immoral, because it coerces me - coercion, in my opinion, is immoral. Shocking, huh?

Given that, the essence of my opposition to any sort of welfare state is moral. The existence of a welfare state is, by definition, immoral.

	08-09-2004 10:06									#115
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Morality is the essence of my opposition to the welfare state!

Which is why most people think your morals are ****ed. Morality was the basis of the creation of the welfare state.

	08-09-2004 10:06									#116
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fine... it's irrelevent to morality in terms of familial obligations... traditional morality.

	08-09-2004 10:10									#117
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Tingkai,

quote: You received a free pre-university education, now it's your turn to pay for some of the costs.

Actually, I went to private school most of my life, which I assure you, wasn't free. Given that, how is it fair to expect me to pay for an education twice?

quote: You live in a society that is relatively free of mass contagions like the plague, small pox and typhoid. That's a direct benefit of public health care that helps prevent minor illness from developing into major illnesses.

Yet, the US is NOT overrun by the plague, and yet, our health care system is private - certainly private in comparison to European nations.

quote: And if you want to skip out on the bill and dodge your responsibilities then you can. You are free to move to another country.

Which is a joke, because that won't exempt me from having to pay the same taxes - or greater ones - there. I'm objecting to the morality and fairness of the system. If you're rebuttal is that I should leave if I don't like it, then I would make that same response to anyone who complains about, say, slavery.

che,

quote: That's their job, pandering to their "special interests," i.e., their constituants.

Actually, special interest groups tend to be a minority viewpoint - take the environmental lobby, for example. Or lobbyists for attorneys. In some cases the special interests represent a majority in a certain constituency, that's true, but even then, I don't think that the job of a Congressman or Senator is strictly to do what their constituents want - it's to uphold the Constitution and to pass fair and moral laws.

quote: Why is doing what the majority of people who voted for you considered pandering to special interests, but doing what business wants isn't?

I oppose pandering to businesses as well, chegitz - I've never been in favor of corporate welfare. Now, the types of things I support are generally beneficial to businesses, but that's because I believe in the free market.

	08-09-2004 10:12									#118
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quote: Which is why most people think your morals are ****ed.

Not really. Do YOU support the legalization of armed robbery?

Oh, I see, you don't - you just think that it should be illegal for a private citizen to commit armed robbery. When the government (an organization presumably backed by a large number of people) does it, you call it something else.

Yeah, that makes sense

quote: Morality was the basis of the creation of the welfare state.

Yeah, all sorts of people use "morality" to back their beliefs. Doesn't make all of them right. (Working hard to avoid invoking Godwin's Law here ). Most of these people also suffer from severe problems with the inconsistency of their beliefs, too.

	08-09-2004 10:15									#119
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quote: have it on record that Ben Kenobi does not support government mandated social programs.

This topic is social security.

There are many other government programs that we could discuss, but right now we are only dealing with social security.

	08-09-2004 10:16									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Families, not neighbours, are the way that I've heard the social contract stated. Sure, the concept may have been broadened to include neighbours, but it all starts with family.

Neighbours, and countrymen too, Ben. That's why it is a social contract, not a family contract. That's also why it is a concept of the Enlightenment. People were banded together in families and small communities for a long time before it seemed wise to acknowledge that there are obligations beyond these small groups to the larger group of all citizens.