08-09-2004 19:52									#211
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Tingkai

	08-09-2004 19:56									#212
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Actually I generally like Greenspan, in that he also doesn't bow the the leftist demands that the unemployment rate being as low as possible is the be all and end all of monetary policy. What can Greenspan do? Control interest rates. What about the US rate has been so bad in the last 15 years?

	08-09-2004 19:59									#213
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Actually, today we have the best economic conditions in my lifetime: high growth, no inflation, historically low interest rates, the lowest unemployment rate in a decade...

Of course, this has a lot to do with Greenspan.

	08-09-2004 20:05									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Did black people have a social responsibility to be slaves 150 years ago? But I sure will remember the "love it or leave it" mentality y'all have, just another thing in common with the warmongering right.

The slaves DID contribute to society, and they had an obligation to do so. That doesn't make slavery fair though, because they contributed way more than the recieved in benefits. And then there's the slave thing too.

Again, this is directed at you personally or any other lib. Assuming, as you do, that poor people have no right to eat food that is owned by others, what should the punishment be for these people who you will kick off of welfare for stealing food for their babies.

	08-09-2004 20:09									#215
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Greenspan is very talented for his job.

	08-09-2004 20:12									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Again, this is directed at you personally or any other lib. Assuming, as you do, that poor people have no right to eat food that is owned by others, what should the punishment be for these people who you will kick off of welfare for stealing food for their babies.

The same as the punishment is for stealing food for themselves, or anything of similar value as the stolen food.

	08-09-2004 20:15									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi The same as the punishment is for stealing food for themselves, or anything of similar value as the stolen food.

That's sick.

	08-09-2004 20:18									#218
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Of course, when asked to vote to help people, Alabama voted no overwhelmingly

Che, are you referring to Riley's tax package, Siegelman's lottery proposal or something else entirely?

	08-09-2004 20:19									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's sick.

What's sick about punishing a thief?

	08-09-2004 20:32									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi What's sick about punishing a thief?

Because you think your property is more important than their lives.

	08-09-2004 20:37									#221
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Their lives don't give them free rein to take whatever they like from me. That's just asinine. Let's get to the heart of the issue, though: he or she is a criminal, obviously without respect for the basic property rights that help form the foundation of any free society. Motivation for the crime is irrelevant to that point. If this mother were that concerned about her baby, she would have (drumroll please) gotten a job when notified that she would no longer be collecting welfare.

	08-09-2004 20:38									#222
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the social contract arrises from this:

Bob's family is large and starts forcing the other families arround to give them food

Charles's family and Adam's realise this and band together (Actually, probably Charle's family offers Adam's family potection in exchange for some of Charles's families food) so as not to be bullied by Bob's family

in each state the individuals of that state recieve certain agreed upon benefits, and in return give up power

at the very basic level, there is the fact that you couldn't keep your land, withuot the assistance of the state

so the basis of the social contract is protection

as Bob's circle (State) grew larger, so did Charles's, with Pete's family and Sven's family soon joining

however, one year Adam's family had a famine, Charles realised that if his family did not assist Adam's family, than Adam's family would not be able to help protect him against Bob

so he requested grain from Pete's family and Sven's family to give to Adam's family so that no one would die and Adam's family could support him

Jon Miller

	08-09-2004 20:39									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Their lives don't give them free rein to take whatever they like from me. That's just asinine. Let's get to the heart of the issue, though: he or she is a criminal, obviously without respect for the basic property rights that help form the foundation of any free society. Motivation for the crime is irrelevant to that point. If this mother were that concerned about her baby, she would have (drumroll please) gotten a job when notified that she would no longer be collecting welfare.

Sometimes jobs are impossible to find. Also, many jobs (in the US at least) are not able to support someone (a minimum wage job takes away all your time, and gives you very little money in response).

Jon Miller

	08-09-2004 20:43									#224
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Particular jobs may be impossible to find at times, but there is always a job to be had.

	08-09-2004 20:44									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Their lives don't give them free rein to take whatever they like from me. That's just asinine. Let's get to the heart of the issue, though: he or she is a criminal, obviously without respect for the basic property rights that help form the foundation of any free society. Motivation for the crime is irrelevant to that point. If this mother were that concerned about her baby, she would have (drumroll please) gotten a job when notified that she would no longer be collecting welfare.

You almost got the heart of the matter. It's that yes she respects the right for you to keep what you have earned. Whether you have truly earned it is a question though, especially in a capitalist system where it depends more often to what family you were born. She understands all to well that her children have a right to live, and that absolutely trumps your right to property. That's how everyone understands it. You Libertarians are so full of **** with you right to property can not be violated for any reason. You know damn well that you would all steal if you had to. Your problem is in your damn heads. You can't put yourself in others situations. This ones for the libs.

	08-09-2004 20:47									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Particular jobs may be impossible to find at times, but there is always a job to be had.

Stop lying to yourself.

	08-09-2004 20:51									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You almost got the heart of the matter. It's that yes she respects the right for you to keep what you have earned. Whether you have truly earned it is a question though, especially in a capitalist system where it depends more often to what family you were born. She understands all to well that her children have a right to live, and that absolutely trumps your right to property. That's how everyone understands it. You Libertarians are so full of **** with you right to property can not be violated for any reason. You know damn well that you would all steal if you hade to. You problem is in your damn heads. You can't put yourself in others situations. This ones for the libs.

Wow. The sad thing is that you believe what you just spewed. If I have played by the rules of the system, I have earned what I own. Whether you or some welfare recipient thinks I have is irrelevant. Her child's right to live is her responsibility, not mine, and therefore does not trump my right to my property. As soon as people are fed the notion that their right to life trumps anybody else's right to property, any free system collapses. Why work then, when I can just rob the rich? After all, I don't think they earned it, and I need to live, so I've got as much right to it as they do.

Oh, and I have no problem putting myself in others' situations. It's just that I tend to find solutions that don't involve criminal activity. Those are always out there, so please, spare me the hooker with the heart of gold routine.

	08-09-2004 20:52									#228
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The Libertarians want to create a system where people have to steal food, and then they want to punish those people. Why? So they can keep all of their stuff.

See you have to be real ****ing rich to think like that. To justify a system without any justification. You have to be real rich and greedy.

	08-09-2004 20:53									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Stop lying to yourself.

LMAO! The built-in assumption is that this destitute mother realizes no job is beneath her. If she does, she'll find a job. If she doesn't, and her baby starves, it's her own fault.

	08-09-2004 20:53									#230
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Oh, I believe no-one has a 'right' to life. If you earn property, no-one can steal it, but no-one should have to steal to feed themselves. That's that I'm not a libertarian, it's the state's job to feed those who cannot afford to feed themselves, so they don't have to steal.

However seeing that I don't believe in natural rights, only rights granted by society, I don't see a right to life as existing without the government saying so. If they want to make murder legal, they can. I have no reason to say that Darwinism shouldn't be allowed to exist, since survival of those that can survive best advances the species fastest. I wouldn't run a country like that, but I can understand reasons for wanting that. I don't believe in some sacred right to live, especially at the expense of others, that trumps all else. What would that woman do if other people weren't here to support her?

	08-09-2004 20:56									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The Libertarians want to create a system where people have to steal food, and then they want to punish those people. Why? So they can keep all of their stuff. See you have to be real ****ing rich to think like that. To justify a system without any justification. You have to be real rich and greedy.

Nobody's creating a system where people have to steal food.

I wish I were real ****ing rich, but it's not the case. Even not being rich, I don't want anybody thinking they have a right to that for which I worked. One's right to life only entails that I not interfere with it, not that I provide it.

	08-09-2004 20:57									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi LMAO! The built-in assumption is that this destitute mother realizes no job is beneath her. If she does, she'll find a job. If she doesn't, and her baby starves, it's her own fault.

Errr. You guys don't get it. You're lying to yourself. You know damn well there isn't enough jobs. What? Do you think the job market is a media conspiracy or something? Really do you?

	08-09-2004 20:59									#233
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quote: Nobody's creating a system where people have to steal food.

How do the abject poor eat without welfare? You say get a job, but what if there isn't any in their area? Then they'll steal food.

	08-09-2004 21:03									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Nobody's creating a system where people have to steal food.

Ok, now your just going pretend like all these people benefiting from govt spending are just going to be just fine. That is just crazy. It has no basis in history.

There are absolutely no other group that believes such ridiculous things as Libertarians. And you will never come to power in a democracy because your whole ideology is just obviously biased to the rich.

	08-09-2004 21:08									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Errr. You guys don't get it. You're lying to yourself. You know damn well there isn't enough jobs. What? Do you think the job market is a media conspiracy or something? Really do you?

No, I don't know damn well that there aren't enough jobs. I do know that, when unemployed, I was always able to scrape together odd jobs to pass the time until something in my field came along. I do know that this has applied to everybody I've known that was unemployed for a while, too. I also know there is always somebody needing somebody else to do something.

Imran: They can pull weeds, keep children, sweep floors or whatever else they can find to scrape up enough pennies to go where there are jobs. There's also charity to be had until a job comes around. Has been as long as there have been abject poor. Chairty is a wonderful thing, being voluntary and all.

They can also steal some food, and get free room and board for a while.

	08-09-2004 21:10									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ok, now your just going pretend like all these people benefiting from govt spending are just going to be just fine. That is just crazy. It has no basis in history. There are absolutely no other group that believes such ridiculous things as Libertarians. And you will never come to power in a democracy because your whole ideology is just obviously biased to the rich.

I pretend nothing. I'm simply pointing out that there are always options that don't require theft. I can see it's pretty pointless, though, as you're inexorably tied to the notion that those currently on welfare will have to steal food to survive. It's simply not true.

	08-09-2004 21:10									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ok, now your just going pretend like all these people benefiting from govt spending are just going to be just fine. That is just crazy. It has no basis in history. There are absolutely no other group that believes such ridiculous things as Libertarians. And you will never come to power in a democracy because your whole ideology is just obviously biased to the rich.

Anarchists are worse (by a bit).

JM

	08-09-2004 21:10									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue What would that woman do if other people weren't here to support her?

What does that have any thing to do with? She was born in our society. What gives someone else more rights than her? You have to realize that libertarians don't even really believe this crap. Of course they know that the life is more important than property. They would steal bread too if they have to. Making it illegal to do so is a violation because they don't have to steal bread. The right to property favors the rich, because the poor have no use for it. Of course the right to life, every one benefits from.

	08-09-2004 21:12									#239
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quote: They can pull weeds, keep children, sweep floors or whatever else they can find to scrape up enough pennies to go where there are jobs.

What if they can't? What if no one is offering jobs in the 'hood? What if they are disabled? What if they have a mental disabilty that prevents them from getting gainful employment?

quote: There's also charity to be had until a job comes around.

What if there isn't enough?

I'd imagine the reason welfare came about was because charity was inadequate.

	08-09-2004 21:12									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi I pretend nothing. I'm simply pointing out that there are always options that don't require theft. I can see it's pretty pointless, though, as you're inexorably tied to the notion that those currently on welfare will have to steal food to survive. It's simply not true.

no there isn't it

especially not that can feed you (and your kid)

Jon Miller