09-09-2004 06:30									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "Putin is really hugely pissed, the Russians are marching in the streets for action. It would be great if the US and Russia could combine to kick Iran's tail. The US supplying the mobile forces and air while the Russians did the heavy ground work." I agree. Only a combined effort on the part of the US and Russians could work. The US heavy stuff is tied up right now but our airforce and air mobile forces could be cut loose to give the heavy Russian forces a high tech edge.

You want to invite Russia into an are they've had their eyes own since the 18th Century, Persia, giving them a warm water port and all that oil? And how do you think we'll ever get them out again?

	09-09-2004 06:33									#62
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Who said I want them out?

	09-09-2004 06:34									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You want to invite Russia into an are they've had their eyes own since the 18th Century, Persia, giving them a warm water port and all that oil? And how do you think we'll ever get them out again?

they don't have the capability of keeping it. just like the U.S. does not have the capability of keeping Iraq.

	09-09-2004 06:40									#64
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

@ this thread. Do you actually believe, that US and Russia will now do joint-operations and strike terrorists and bases US also wants to hit? And that the level of cooperation and sharing of information will never get to be there? A little naive..

Well anyway. My point is. The argument about pre-emptive strikes has usually lead to 'well aren't you glad that the US is the one doing that, because US is good?'. To where I reply, yeah, thank God US is good, because if it was someone else, it could be really bad.

This is more a response to expanding NATO than anything else. Russia is stepping up a little, as NATO was choking the borders of Russia with new members.

Do you trust them so much, that you want to turn a blind eye and accept what ever is said and *BOOM* somewhere, allegedly 19 terrorists killed in some other country? A little naive.

They just gave themselves a blank cheque. And we are supposed to believe, that it will never get abused? The information flow has never exactly been THAT good from there anyway, nto to mention Putin OWNS the media, excluding some of the newspapers, but then again they will get in line if slapped. I'm not saying they shouldn't strike the terrorists that are plaguing Russia now. Maybe this is the only way they can defend themselves against these school hostage takers and other bastards. But I never knew it has connection to statement 'anywhere in the world, but no nukes'. That means, everything goes basically.

Can we do strikes in there too? I don't think so. Why not? Why can't we do that too? Why can't everyone just have that blank cheque? This is just a new form of weapons race, where some people see opportunity to fight terrorism, I see a new opportunity for Cold War.

It amazes me how some peopel trust their own president to a degree, but it amazes me even more when they actually trust Putin the same way.

	09-09-2004 06:41									#65
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The world is an unpredictable place, pekka. It is best you don't predict and wait and see what happens. Chances are Russia is going to go on its own on removing terrorists.

	09-09-2004 06:48									#66
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Chances are, yes. Guarantees? No. And since we live next to it, I say we need to step up too. I have trust, but not that much trust.

I have a problem with 'anywhere in the world' part. The terrorist problem they are facing is very regional now. Saying we don't use nukes means they are not also going to be very soft handed when executing plans.

It also gives a great chance for agents etc to completely **** up places. Say I don't like .. Latvia or something. All I need is one doubleagent, to create huge tensions claiming and 'providing evidence' that there are some aiding from Latvia directly to the terrorists and that some of them are hiding in there. Now, they can strike Latvia.
In fact, they only have to be enemies and not terrorist, we can claim they were terrorists afterwards. Or how about the scenario of terrorists spreading into other countries, so they are not in danger of getting hit in their own countries, because there should be collateral damage?

I think waiting and seeing what will happen is a bad idea, because if something bad should happen, it's too late already. I trust Russia, but do I trust this much? Absolutely not. And we're even giving our landmines away. A little naive from our part as well.

	09-09-2004 06:49									#67
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Heheheh, is Pekka scared? Don't worry Russia already had a war with Finland in the past. It didn't go too well.. did it?

	09-09-2004 06:51									#68
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No, but it shouldn't mean history will repeat itself. Besides, I don't even want to think about that possibility. THat's not realistic anyway. And it's unrealistic at this point that they would have something to do in here. What is realistic is, that there will be action in other countries though. How do we know this action was OK and against terrorists? We can't.

	09-09-2004 06:56									#69
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So, what should Putin do? Harsh language?

	09-09-2004 06:58									#70
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Do what everyone else is doing. If we declare that we have the same 'rights' too everywhere in the world, do you agree that our new rights are justified?

	09-09-2004 06:59									#71
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Hundreds of dead kids Pekka, what should Putin do?

	09-09-2004 07:01									#72
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Do what everyone else does. Have intelligence, and then going after them, just like before. You don't think there's difference? There's huge difference.

So, can we claim the same right or not? Why should we wait and have hundreds of kids dead too possibly, why should we wait? I think we should have the same right too, and so with Germany too. How about that? And Japan as well. And China.

	09-09-2004 07:04									#73
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"going after them"

See, we agree.

	09-09-2004 07:10									#74
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No we don't. They have been doing that already. And some countries do that too anyway, like.. agencies and stuff.

However, this is stated, so there can be big **** ups in the future. Going after terrorists anywhere in the world is different than stating to have the right to strike anywehre in the world against terrorist and no using nukes. Theres a huge difference.

	09-09-2004 07:12									#75
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Terrorists have that right, but you would deny it to those they attack?

	09-09-2004 07:16									#76
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no, it's not a right. Trying to make it legal, by any party like that is not a healthy trend.

Imagine yourself, that you were the size of.. one state, small state, and all the other states were your neighbour that is Russia, and they state a thing like this. Would you feel safe? I don't think you would. It was totally unnecessary statement, and it was stated because they are getting ready to make big **** ups as well, aka collateral damage and somehow make it legal.

	09-09-2004 07:16									#77
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ANd you didn't answer my question, can we have that right too, legally strike anywhere in teh world when we see fit?

	09-09-2004 07:24									#78
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We aren't dealing with the Soviet Union here Pekka. Russia couldn't invade Latvia and get away with it. That's just a crock of crap however, the Russian people demand action and Putin is going to give it to them. Action against the people and nations behind the massacre. You don't like it? Say it's not their right? You waste your breath. I suggest there's nothing any of us can do about it... That said, I wouldn't do anything about it if I could. I also wouldn't have tried to stop the US going after Osama, but that's just me.

	09-09-2004 07:29									#79
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"Russia couldn't invade Latvia and get away with it."

Yeah because it's NATO country now. Other countries, too bad for them.

" the Russian people demand action and Putin is going to give it to them"

What about our rights? What if we demand we want to have right to strike Russia if they start messing up in here? What if we catch few agents here, can we launch few strikes in there as well?

"You don't like it? Say it's not their right? You waste your breath"

So, I ask again, can we strike in Russia?

"I also wouldn't have tried to stop the US going after Osama, but that's just me."

When did I argue against this? Or Russia goign after terrorists?

	09-09-2004 07:31									#80
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Except the Russian Military can't even take Grozny without a three month long siege. I don't think anyone really has anything to worry about.

	09-09-2004 07:34									#81
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They can take Grozny any day they want if they decide to step on and smash it up. They just don't want that publicity about it, but militarily, they could tore it up if they wanted to.

I should make it more clear; I think RUssia can and should strike against terrorists, even outside Russia. But this has been done in the past. There's no need to give yourself this blank cheque, making it totally legal. It violates others rights, and if no one else can strike in Russia too when ever they see fit, it's double standards.

	09-09-2004 07:50									#82
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Pekka, you're right, it's not fair.I suggest the president of Finland declare his right to retake that bit of Finnish forest next to St Petersburg lost during WW2. It's only fair...

	09-09-2004 07:51									#83
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They did smash it up, randomly dropped bombs on it, sent in tanks, carpeted the city with artillary, and they still couldn't take it. They just didn't have the coordination or the disipline to do it. Their military is a mess compared to WW2.

	09-09-2004 07:55									#84
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Oerdin is correct. So Pekka, this is Finland's big chance. Attack!

	09-09-2004 07:56									#85
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That's correct, because we need a little buffer zone, now that the political atmosphere have changed. We don't need to 'steal' it, what does that mean anyway. We only need to do re-assesment of the current situation, whcih would support our claims, and modify the border politics a bit to face that new development. It's not illegal, it's totally fair. Right?

Anyway, like said, I don't trust Putin, but I also think he wouldn't attack in here that's almost for sure. We're still friendlies, and if we had terrorists in here, say someone would come in here with a wrong passport or so and we would be unable to detect it, Russia would let us know and we would take care of it ourselves, or give those people to Russia. So there is really no need to strike in here, plus you can't actually get in here with military force, except with agents to do attacks we wouldn't give permission to do, which we wouldn't give permission because we would do it ourselves, or capture them and give them to Russia. So, we wouldnt' have any problems anyway. However, the claim still bothers me a bit, because they would have that possibility, and somehow it would be legal as well, and not many people would even question it really. SO that's disturbing. And that's why I hoped they would just keep doign what they already do, which is to go after terrorists and take them out, but in the traditional way like before.

	09-09-2004 08:08									#86
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous I barely trust the American government to go after the terrorists. Why on Earth would I trust Russia?!

maybe because you are a pinko godless communist

	09-09-2004 08:10									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident hmm. I support strong response to terrorism, but even I have my doubts. I've asked if terrorism has ever worked. Another important questions to ask is: has strong violent responses to terrorism ever worked? That is the more important question. I don't think it has. It just breeds more terrorists. Terrorism cannot be defeated. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

It can be defeated. On the one hand the culture it is coming from can step up to the plate and crush them. On the other hand that culture can be annihilated.

	09-09-2004 08:11									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin They did smash it up, randomly dropped bombs on it, sent in tanks, carpeted the city with artillary, and they still couldn't take it. They just didn't have the coordination or the disipline to do it. Their military is a mess compared to WW2.

I'm fairly sure that they have control of the city now. They were fighting for a different reason in 1994 then they are now.

	09-09-2004 09:43									#89
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Geronimo, I should think your beliefs about governments not infringing on people's rights would lead you to condemn assassination, unless the victim had already been tried and convicted of a capital crime. What do you think about the U.S. government assassinating people without trial?

The blood is on the heads of those countries who are blocking the extradition and providing asylum. This is war. There were trials for the nazis in ww2, but only when the fighting had stopped. If there was a way to kidnap these guys instead of assassinating them, perhaps the the way isreal was sometimes able to do when it would track down ex-nazis, that would be much preferable. But if a trial can not conceivably be arranged then it is better to assasinate the terrorist than to let them go free.

	09-09-2004 09:47									#90
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I still say we attack Finland and get Pekka.