10-09-2004 17:23									#151
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Speaking of that noble ally France, whose president and ministers were on the take for Saddam's billions in syphoned UN oil for food money, it turns out that they were major arms suppliers to Iraq even during the Clinton regime. (So much for Bush being the cause of their "disloyalty".) It also turns out, it seems, that much of the new weaponry raining down on US troops is "Made in France." New, mind you. New.

Chirac is something to behold.

	10-09-2004 17:26									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well there's smoke, granted. But I am still suspicious that a lot of this is propaganda. After all, we have the example of John Kerry telling the world of all the attrocities committed by US troops, in the manner of Ghenghis Khan, in Vietnam. As I said, propaganda.

There is a smoke indeed, but you- westerners heard only one version of the story- the terrorist's version.
Why CNN didn't invited some of the Russian authorities (perhaps the Russian ambassador) to present the Russian point of view for the world, after this terrorist scum Zakaev left the CNN studio?
You heard too much of their propaganda during last ten years.
So-called freedom of your so-called press-

	10-09-2004 18:51									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Oh, believe they describe behaviour of your soldiers in Iraq defirently.

This type of childishly stupid reaction seems quite typical for you. Is it some sort of defense mechinism?

	10-09-2004 18:53									#154
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc This type of childishly stupid reaction seems quite typical for you. Is it some sort of defense mechinism?

Hasn't Russia tradionally had a defense mechinism against the west. Czars, Communists and those currently in power?

	10-09-2004 19:01									#155
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Serb

And this particular sh!t based on which source? The f*ckers who take our children hostages and killing them and who now hide in your countries tell you those stories?
Great source of knowledge.
Did you ever see a pictures of Russian soldiers who tortued and humilated their prisoners, like US soldiers did in Abu Ghraib? Did you ever heard about such case in any Russian camp for prisoners. Bring me evidenses, SHOW ME THE PHOTOS GODDAMNIT.
****. [/QUOTE


evidently Russians are smart enough not to bring cameras into such situations..

Serb - are there any pictures of Israelis beating Pals in prisons? Is there evidence for that or worse other than what comes from Israels enemies? has the russian press done any exposes of this "anti-Israel" propaganda?

	10-09-2004 19:05									#156
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Just curious...what would France's reaction have been to having 300+ of her children murdered?

Anger and incomprehension of course.

Many people would call for revenge on whatever Arabic country we don't like. But the behaviour of our government would mostly be about making speeches to reinsure the population (of course), and to look where the anti-terror aspect of its policies has failed.

We could expect more drastic anti-terrorist measures, more willingness to extradict terrorists living in foreign countries. And probably more pressure on foreign countries to stop creating a fertile ground for terrorism.

	10-09-2004 19:08									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Many people would call for revenge on whatever Arabic country we don't like.

I'll go on a limb and say that it'd be Algeria and not an Arabic country.

	10-09-2004 19:09									#158
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'll go on a limb and say that it'd be Algeria and not an Arabic country. [/QUOTE

since when is Algeria not Arab? Is this an althistory where the Berbers are the majority there?

	10-09-2004 19:11									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Speaking of that noble ally France, whose president and ministers were on the take for Saddam's billions in syphoned UN oil for food money, it turns out that they were major arms suppliers to Iraq even during the Clinton regime. (So much for Bush being the cause of their "disloyalty".)

It was a well known fact that Saddam was a client regime of France. And of course, Chirac wouldn't have given up his client with glee. American and French interests were opposite in Iraq, that's nothing new.
But that's nothing which couldn't have been overcome with some negociation. The reason why both countries' stances radicalized so much, is because both countries saw what political gain they could milk from such radicalization.

To blame only Bush of French "disloyalty" is false. Bush and Chirac are both responsible of it.

	10-09-2004 19:17									#160
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'll go on a limb and say that it'd be Algeria and not an Arabic country.

Probably Algeria indeed, since it's the only Arabic country we can have a strong dislike for. But most probably, there will be calls for revenge on our Arabic neighborhoods, because it is the one Arabic place that is really at odds with French society (and a massive terror attack on our territory would probably stem there)

	10-09-2004 19:35									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor We could expect more drastic anti-terrorist measures, more willingness to extradict terrorists living in foreign countries. And probably more pressure on foreign countries to stop creating a fertile ground for terrorism.

It baffles the mind that France would not already be doing this to the largest extent possible.

	10-09-2004 19:40									#162
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You have to remember that their national football hero is of Arabic descent

	11-09-2004 01:14									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I don't trust a single word they post after the article you posted in different thread.

Why? Because all of those have long standing traditions and policies of being impartial, responsible, and truthful? As opposed to the extensive free history of the Russian press....

OH WAIT RUSSIA HAS NO EXTENSIVE HISTORY OF FREE, IMPARTIAL, TRUTHFUL, AND RESPONSIBLE PRESS!



Ned:

Propaganda |= lies!

Serb: How do you know CNN didn't invite Russian representitives on tv? Or that they did but Russian Authorities declined to do so?

	11-09-2004 06:37									#164
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO It baffles the mind that France would not already be doing this to the largest extent possible.

"More drastic anti-terrorist measures" would mean definitely less freedom for the people. It appears our anti-terrorist measures are already worse than the Patriot Act (so claims Drake at least). For the time being, our policemen don't systematically searches every Arab for explosives, we are supposed to be protected by the law when the police wants something with us, etc.

Imagine real drastic measures with today's technology. It would be the wet dream of any East-Germany's secret agent. You can film everybody, you can track every monetary transaction, you can follow anybody with genetic prints, you can have an absolute and totalitarian society. Maximal safety would mean maximal totalitarianism.



"Putting pressure to other countries to stop creating breeding grounds for terrorism" would target Pakistan and Iran, as well as Israel, the US, and Russia. With these countries' reckless attitudes, uncontrolled and furious terrorists arise.

We are having a remarkably soft stance toward the US ever since the Iraqi war ended, and we are very mellow with the Russians. Unfortunately, in our position, mellowness pays more than playing hardball with these countries, so we can't hope anything on the diplomatic field in this regard.

	11-09-2004 06:46									#165
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"Speaking of that noble ally France, whose president and ministers were on the take for Saddam's billions in syphoned UN oil for food money, it turns out that they were major arms suppliers to Iraq even during the Clinton regime. (So much for Bush being the cause of their "disloyalty".) It also turns out, it seems, that much of the new weaponry raining down on US troops is "Made in France." New, mind you. New.

Chirac is something to behold."

This is unfair! They are French, it's what they do, it's who they are, so it can't be helped. You might as well say they stink. Of course they stink! They don't bathe, so how could they not? Ned, give em a break...

	13-09-2004 09:40									#166
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc This type of childishly stupid reaction seems quite typical for you. Is it some sort of defense mechinism?

Then what the hell is your reaction- Russians should leave Chechnya, despite it's recognized as Russian territory by all possible international laws, while it's OK for USA to invide sovereign countries, thus violating all possible international laws; Russians are opressing Chechens, humilate and tortue their prisoners (no photos, unfortunately), while it's OK for US to do the same in Iraq (photos exist, unfortunately); Russian are bastards, because they used fuel explosives in Grozny (no evidences, unfortunately), while it's OK for US to use the same bombs as well as many other restricted boms, such as cassete bombs in Iraq; Russians are bastards, because they used artillery against Grozny, while it's OK for US to use artillery against Baghdad, Al-Faluja, Al-Najaf, etc; Russians should negotiate with terrorists who kill their children, while no negotiations between ObL and US, etc.
What the hell is this? Is it some kind of attack mechanism or just an example of your double-standard, hypocrite nature?

	13-09-2004 09:42									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Hasn't Russia tradionally had a defense mechinism against the west. Czars, Communists and those currently in power?

Without these defense mechanisms west would destroy us long time ago.

	13-09-2004 09:48									#168
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark [QUOTE] Originally posted by Serb And this particular sh!t based on which source? The f*ckers who take our children hostages and killing them and who now hide in your countries tell you those stories? Great source of knowledge. Did you ever see a pictures of Russian soldiers who tortued and humilated their prisoners, like US soldiers did in Abu Ghraib? Did you ever heard about such case in any Russian camp for prisoners. Bring me evidenses, SHOW ME THE PHOTOS GODDAMNIT. ****. [/QUOTE evidently Russians are smart enough not to bring cameras into such situations..

I knew this comming. When you have no evidences, it's pretty easy to claim that's because they were smart enough to do not left any evidences. What the hell else you can do in this case.
If you make charges, you need evidences. It's simple as that. If you don't have evidences, it means your charges are just a BS-charges. It's a worldwide practice, btw.

quote: Serb - are there any pictures of Israelis beating Pals in prisons? Is there evidence for that or worse other than what comes from Israels enemies? has the russian press done any exposes of this "anti-Israel" propaganda?

Never seen that. Never heard about exposes of "anti-Israel" propaganda as well.

	13-09-2004 09:57									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Why? Because all of those have long standing traditions and policies of being impartial, responsible, and truthful? As opposed to the extensive free history of the Russian press....

Because in the article you gave, I've found SO MANY lies, that after that I don't trust a single word coming from such sources.

quote: OH WAIT RUSSIA HAS NO EXTENSIVE HISTORY OF FREE, IMPARTIAL, TRUTHFUL, AND RESPONSIBLE PRESS!

But we had "Pravda"
And because of this we know how BS smells, we read this BS in Pravda for decades. What I found in your article was 100% Pravda-style BS. To read this article, for me was like back in the past and read Pravda again.

quote: Serb: How do you know CNN didn't invite Russian representitives on tv? Or that they did but Russian Authorities declined to do so?

They did invited some, really?
I see no reason why Russians could decline such offer.

	13-09-2004 10:12									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Then what the hell is your reaction-

My reaction is that you should a) shut the hell up and act like a man and b) not act like an annoying spoiled brat whenever someone says something you consider negative about Russia. FYI: Launching into long tirades about the evils of US troops when people are talking about Russian excesses in Chechnya is acting like a spoiled little child. It annoys everyone and serves only to demean you and the case you wish to present.

	13-09-2004 11:53									#171
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So, it's ok for you to lecturing us how we should act, right? I should just shut up, because when I point out that US isn't better, thus its critique sounds like hypocrite sh!t- it's a childish behavior, right? You can do such things and still educate Russia that it shouldn't do such things...

Oh wait a minute, I forgot that I should shut up according to part "a)". Your wish is my command, master.

	13-09-2004 16:40									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Serb So, it's ok for you to lecturing us how we should act, right? I should just shut up, because when I point out that US isn't better, thus its critique sounds like hypocrite sh!t- it's a childish behavior, right? You can do such things and still educate Russia that it shouldn't do such things... Oh wait a minute, I forgot that I should shut up according to part "a)". Your wish is my command, master.

Perhaps when the title of the thread is about Russia, actions of US troops in Iraq should be kept in threads about US troops in Iraq, unless the "Well they do it too" excuse is to be used. Just a thought

	13-09-2004 17:40									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Felch Hooray! Maybe the Russians will actually fight Al Qaeda instead of just invading random countries.

If Russia does it maybe the US will copy them and actually do that too...

	13-09-2004 18:10									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Perhaps when the title of the thread is about Russia, actions of US troops in Iraq should be kept in threads about US troops in Iraq, unless the "Well they do it too" excuse is to be used. Just a thought

I can accept such whining when it comes from Euro, but when American start to lecture Russia about human rights or international laws violations...

	13-09-2004 19:10									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I can accept such whining when it comes from Euro, but when American start to lecture Russia about human rights or international laws violations...

Why is that. Many Americans are just as critical about American actions as they are about Russian ones. The prisoner abuse cases in Iraq are atrocious and those responsible should be dealt with harshly no matter how high it goes up. Many of the decisions made by the admistration regarding Iraq have been mishandled and contributed to a lot of hatred.

It's healthy to question your goverment Serb. Every action should be questioned simply because the consequences for individuals and entire societies are at stake.

	13-09-2004 19:29									#176
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This just in: Putin will strongly centralize Russia and weaken local democracy. But the God-Lord does it for the security of his people, of course.

From the BBC

quote: Putin tightens grip on security President Vladimir Putin has ordered a drastic overhaul of the way Russia is run in the wake of a series of bombings and deadly attacks on civilians. Mr Putin said strengthening central government control was a necessary part of the fight against terrorism. He also announced plans to create a new federal anti-terror agency. Mr Putin was speaking to a special cabinet meeting attended by regional governors, summoned after hundreds died in the school siege in Beslan. Political shake-up "The organisers and perpetrators of the terror attack are aiming at the disintegration of the state, the break-up of Russia," he told ministers, the Associated Press news agency reported. Mr Putin admitted Russia's fight against terrorism had not been effective so far, and went on to put forward a series of radical and far-reaching reforms, including: * Plans to elect deputies of the state's lower house of parliament, the Duma, solely on a party-list basis - currently half are elected from local constituencies on a first-past-the-post basis * Regional governors to be nominated by the head of state rather than elected * A new federal commission to study the troubled North Caucasus region, at the heart of much tension * Security services to increase their international co-operation * Harsher punishments to be meted out to corrupt officials who help terrorists, for example by issuing false passports * A "Public Chamber" initiative to give Russians a forum to debate government decisions Mr Putin also repeated that Russia had a right to take pre-emptive action to "destroy criminals in their hideouts and, if necessary, abroad". Security has become Moscow's top concern following the school siege in Beslan and a series of bombings, says the BBC's Peter Biles in Moscow. The new measures will almost certainly strengthen Mr Putin's own position, and further limit the power of an already weakened opposition, our correspondent adds. The new commission on the North Caucasus - a region that includes Chechnya and the North Ossetia republic that is home to Beslan - will be headed by the government chief of staff, Dimitry Kozak, one of Mr Putin's closest allies. Security review Further measures under consideration include restoring the death penalty, tighter controls on foreigners and the creation of a colour-coded alert system. The governor of the Moscow region has said he wants checks to be carried out on anyone arriving in the capital from the Caucasus. President Putin has already ordered a review of security in the North Caucasus. He also ordered a parliamentary investigation following criticism of how the authorities handled the three-day school siege in North Ossetia. At least 326 people were killed, about half of them children. The day before the siege began, at least 10 people were killed in a suspected suicide bombing outside an underground railway station in Moscow. Another 89 people were killed last month in a suspected terror attack when two Russian planes crashed within minutes of each other.

	13-09-2004 20:26									#177
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I would be curious to see the power projection abilities of the Russian military.

I can count on one hand the number of Russian surface ships I have seen, let alone an ambib type vessel. Unless they plan on marching overland wherever they want to go.

I think the logistics will break them long before they get the opportunity to combat anyone.

	13-09-2004 20:30									#178
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Obviously Putin does not realize that Communism just gives you a flat rate of corruption regardless of distance to the capitol. Only true democracry gets rid of corruption and makes your units immune to bribery.

	13-09-2004 20:31									#179
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Obviously Putin does not realize that Communism just gives you a flat rate of corruption regardless of distance to the capitol. Only true democracry gets rid of corruption and makes your units immune to bribery.

Nah, Putin plays Civ3, and communism makes much for sense for a territory like his.

	13-09-2004 21:32									#180
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He has a lot of corruption problems though.