10-09-2004 04:09									#121
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Dr. Strangelove, colonialism is not the answer. Democracy is.

	10-09-2004 04:21									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo THEY MUST ASSASSINATE ALL TERRORISTS EVERYWHERE. International boundaries should mean nothing. There should be a joint global defense agency including Russia and the US that specializes in assassinating terrorists (including these Chechnen monsters). Putin should be praised for this (****, I'm agreeing with Tass).

It would be hard not to be a terrorist yourself if you do this...

	10-09-2004 04:28									#123
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I love this thread simply because someone used me as a source of authority.

	10-09-2004 04:31									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber What's your solution? My idea is simply that a state supporting terrorism against my country makes that country my enemy. In theory you could try to justify unrestricted warfare but I would tend not favor that. I would tend to meet force with force and strike at the nation state that is striking at my country. What would you do ? I'm assuming sanctions etc are already in place and I don't think just taking it is effective either

Contrast Clinton raining bombs down on OBL and Bush taking out the Taliban. You seem to support the Clinton brand of looking tough without being tough.

	10-09-2004 05:33									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo The blood is on the heads of those countries who are blocking the extradition and providing asylum. This is war. There were trials for the nazis in ww2, but only when the fighting had stopped. If there was a way to kidnap these guys instead of assassinating them, perhaps the the way isreal was sometimes able to do when it would track down ex-nazis, that would be much preferable. But if a trial can not conceivably be arranged then it is better to assasinate the terrorist than to let them go free.

But we don't for the most part know confidently who is a terrorist. If they were American citizens I think you would be fervently defending their right not to be killed by the government without a fair trial. Why is this different?

	10-09-2004 06:03									#126
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as the saying goes, "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!"

-=Vel=-

	10-09-2004 06:19									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I don't want Iran with nukes, because Iran has a strong potential for being rules by unpredictable nutcases. If Iran has nukes, the real danger will come from their leaders more than from their terrorists. But the connection between nukes and the harboring of terrorists is very slim. I don't expect the Iranian government to trust nukes in the hands of terrorists;

I'm sorry, you misunderstood, and I haven't been in all day.

Consider Iran as it is known now, having supported Hezbollah and Hamas, and having a clear hand in using terrorism to disrupt our efforts in Iraq. Iran is already doing this, without having nukes as a way to dissuade retaliatory strikes.

Now consider an Iran with nukes, that can use them to dissuade retaliatory strikes...

	10-09-2004 06:59									#128
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quote: Originally posted by debeest But we don't for the most part know confidently who is a terrorist. If they were American citizens I think you would be fervently defending their right not to be killed by the government without a fair trial. Why is this different?

no. I'd demand that the government harboring the US citizen extradite them to stand trial in Russia for their crimes. If the extradition would not occur then Russia's only acceptable option is to try to kidnap or assasinate the terrorists (suspect) rather than just being forced to wring their hands while a terrorist seems to walk free. Countries shouldn't provide asylum from other democracies for terrorist suspects and if they do, then the blood of that suspect is on their heads should the victimized country find itself forced to resort to assasination.

sucky situation, but like I said this is war.

	10-09-2004 07:00									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Dr. Strangelove, colonialism is not the answer. Democracy is.

You mean like the Islamic Republic of Iran?

	10-09-2004 07:45									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx as the saying goes, "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!"

Among wargamers, the saying is nuke them 'till they glow, then shoot them in the dark.

	10-09-2004 08:09									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor to Putin. This is indeed a threat against every country in the world, as it gives Russia a nice excuse to bbully or invade whomever they want. "Pre-emptive strikes" my arse. This will be used in a strategy of imperialism and militarism Putin already knows too well

Yeah, He rebuilds the USSR and already invaded sh!tloads of countries since he was elected.

	10-09-2004 10:06									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove You mean like the Islamic Republic of Iran?

Cynical, are we not?

	10-09-2004 10:06									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Nope. Bush knows he would have suffered from extremely intense criticism if he butchered Iraqis the same way Putin butchered Chechens. Heck, Abu Ghraib is a walk in the park compared to what Russia regularly does, yet it was a worldwide scandal for two weeks. Had Bush permitted such butchering in Iraq, even many of his zealots would have turned against him.

And this particular sh!t based on which source? The f*ckers who take our children hostages and killing them and who now hide in your countries tell you those stories?
Great source of knowledge.
Did you ever see a pictures of Russian soldiers who tortued and humilated their prisoners, like US soldiers did in Abu Ghraib? Did you ever heard about such case in any Russian camp for prisoners. Bring me evidenses, SHOW ME THE PHOTOS GODDAMNIT.
****.

	10-09-2004 10:12									#134
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Serb, I'll bet the US and Russia are already talking on ways to cooperate -- much to the consternation of France, given Spiffor's reaction.

	10-09-2004 10:24									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Serb And this particular sh!t based on which source?

Amnesty Intrnational, Human Rights Watch, ect.

	10-09-2004 10:43									#136
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Oh, believe they describe behaviour of your soldiers in Iraq defirently.

	10-09-2004 10:52									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber How long before China decides Taiwan is harboring terrorists?

The current Economist has an article on this which deals with Xianjaing provience of eastern China. The natives are all Turkic Muslims but, like Tibet, the Chinese are trying to ethnically cleanse the area and make way for ethnic Chinese colonists. The Chinese government has officially passed a law where a terrorist is "anyone who thinks bad thoughts".

In other words a terrorist is anyone who opposes current Chinese government polices.

	10-09-2004 10:58									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The current Economist has an article on this which deals with Xianjaing provience of eastern China. The natives are all Turkic Muslims but, like Tibet, the Chinese are trying to ethnically cleanse the area and make way for ethnic Chinese colonists. The Chinese government has officially passed a law where a terrorist is "anyone who thinks bad thoughts". In other words a terrorist is anyone who opposes current Chinese government polices.

I thought you said that a terrorist was a person who thought "bad" thoughts?

	10-09-2004 10:59									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Oh, believe they describe behaviour of your soldiers in Iraq defirently.

Nope, the 17 people who have been found to have taken part in the abuses of Abu Ghraib have all been arrested and are imprisioned awaiting trial. When one of our guys is found to have broken the law we throw the book at him; compare that to Russia's record in the Caucuses. The Russian Army tourtured prisions, executed prisions, and raped women but didn't even go through the pretext of looking for their soldiers who commited war crimes.

I'm actually very sympathetic to Russia's aims in the Caucuses but I find Putin's inability even to try to stay with in international law to be disturbing.

	10-09-2004 11:04									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Russian Army tourtured prisions, executed prisions, and raped women but didn't even go through the pretext of looking for their soldiers who commited war crimes. I'm actually very sympathetic to Russia's aims in the Caucuses but I find Putin's inability even to try to stay with in international law to be disturbing.

Are you sure these events happened at all? I know people might be saying these things happened, but are they to be believed? The other side in this war on terror are very skilled at propaganda.

Think al Jazeera.

	10-09-2004 11:48									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Yeah, He rebuilds the USSR and already invaded sh!tloads of countries since he was elected.

If it's any consolation Serb, I highly doubt Russia is going to go off and launch overseas adventures.












But only because they don't have the capability to.

	10-09-2004 11:50									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Are you sure these events happened at all? I know people might be saying these things happened, but are they to be believed? The other side in this war on terror are very skilled at propaganda. Think al Jazeera.

Think Newsweek, Time, the Economist....like Oerdin, I personally think Chechnya should remain part of Russia. But the way the Russian army has been handling it has been criminal.

	10-09-2004 12:21									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Nope, the 17 people who have been found to have taken part in the abuses of Abu Ghraib have all been arrested and are imprisioned awaiting trial. When one of our guys is found to have broken the law we throw the book at him; compare that to Russia's record in the Caucuses. The Russian Army tourtured prisions, executed prisions, and raped women but didn't even go through the pretext of looking for their soldiers who commited war crimes. I'm actually very sympathetic to Russia's aims in the Caucuses but I find Putin's inability even to try to stay with in international law to be disturbing.

I need evidences, not tales invented by enemy's propaganda. Show me the photos of Russian soldiers tortuering their prisoners. And who told you we didn't punish our criminals? Chechnya is flooded by military police who is looking for any opportunity to throw some new soldiers and officers to jail for any crime. The main idea was to do not piss off locals this time, to make them less hostile.

	10-09-2004 12:22									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Think Newsweek, Time, the Economist....like Oerdin, I personally think Chechnya should remain part of Russia. But the way the Russian army has been handling it has been criminal.

I don't trust a single word they post after the article you posted in different thread.

	10-09-2004 16:22									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Serb, I'll bet the US and Russia are already talking on ways to cooperate -- much to the consternation of France, given Spiffor's reaction.

Ned, you have to understand something: I am not France. To generalize my country's stances based on my stances is completely absurd. Do I think that America is a monolith that thinks like Fez?

	10-09-2004 16:59									#146
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Spiffor, France is out of touch with the world today. They nearly drew Russia into their demise. Reality knocked, and Russia has answered. Rally your countrymen! France has an important role to play in this war if they will. Let's hope they get involved before reality comes knocking on your country's door.

Just curious...what would France's reaction have been to having 300+ of her children murdered?

	10-09-2004 17:02									#147
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Let me guess... surender?

	10-09-2004 17:05									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Let me guess... surender?

Indeed...

	10-09-2004 17:14									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Cynical, are we not?

Nope, just taking a hard look at the track record. Most of these countries had relatively short periods as colonies, only a generation or two. India was a crown colony for nearly a century and turned out much better, at least with regards to political stability.

	10-09-2004 17:17									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Think Newsweek, Time, the Economist....like Oerdin, I personally think Chechnya should remain part of Russia. But the way the Russian army has been handling it has been criminal.

Well there's smoke, granted. But I am still suspicious that a lot of this is propaganda.

After all, we have the example of John Kerry telling the world of all the attrocities committed by US troops, in the manner of Ghenghis Khan, in Vietnam.

As I said, propaganda.