10-09-2004 03:12									#1
	I suck, need to vent. Increase the size of your Attachments

My first post... hee hee

I can't for the life of me get anywhere in a Monarch game. Regent's too easy, but in Monarch, I just can't keep up with the AI. This is in C3C

By the time I have 5 cities up the computer is 5-6 techs ahead of me, AND, starts sending over massive waves of archers/warriors/spearmen/swordsmen.

Argh, and is it just me that the Dutch HATE? I've been stuck about 20 tiles away from them last 3 games and they ALWAYS declare war 10-20 turns after they find me. No matter how many military units I build.

Been reading the advice forums, guess I need to just group up my cities or something. *sigh* Everything was much easier in Regent.

SSR

	10-09-2004 03:29									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

How far apart are your towns from the capitol and from each other typically? By the time you have 5 built, how many Workers do you usually have?

	10-09-2004 03:37									#3
	hurm Suffering from ads?

I'm almost always stuck in tundra or desert so I end up with my cities 21 sqaure borders touching most of the time. Usually around 5 cities I'd have 3 workers and 1 in the queue. At least 2 spearmen per city,2-4 warriors wandering around looking for huts/resources. If I've contacted another Civ by that time I have to start pumping out more Spearmen, becuase chances are its the damned Dutch :P

SSR

P.S.
I've been playing Persia/Ottoman this go round so Sci/Ind

	10-09-2004 03:39									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Bear in mind on the tech issue that ultra-early tech leads often appear enormous, especially if your neighbor is expansionist, due to trading. I'd much rather be behind at that point, when it's relatively easy to catch up, than later in the game, when it can get impossible.

	10-09-2004 03:43									#5
	Government Type Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Also, I usually bee-line for the republic for the added effeciency, But I know that this reduces unit support. Is it better to go Monarch early game?

The AI in this game is so fun, they want my World Map for 50gp, but if I want thiers they want 300+ gold
I love it
SSR

	10-09-2004 04:03									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

StainlessSteel, welcome aboard. It is ok to have optimal city spacing at Monarch, but it can help to cut that down to CxxC.

This give you more overlap, but it makes defense much easier. You will have no more than 12 tile worked until you get hospitals (ok you could get the wonder that acts like one).

So being closer is not an issue. If you in fact have very poor start locations, then you have your hands full. Nothing much can be done about it until you can hurt the civs near you.

What tech you start with and how you research and trade is an important factor to stay in the hunt early. Get those contacts and trade those starting techs as much as you can.

After those task, you need to get your tiles improved as soon as you have a citizen to work them. This means workers making roads and mines and a few tiles being irrigated.

If you are weak compared to civs near you, do not hold on to a lot of cash. They will be demanding it, if you have it. So spend it.

This can be done by producing units or structure, researching more or upgrading.

I would suggest you reconsider those spears, unless you need them for defense right now. They are not really needed at monarch that often and that early.

I would rather have horses or swords or units that can upgrade to them, depending on your UU. IOW attackers trump defenders and mobile trumps all.

If you want some detailed advise, post a save or three and players will review them to see what is going on.

	10-09-2004 04:06									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

A PS to the demanding cash aspect. If you need to avoid a conflict, go ahead and pay the tribute. This is less painful if you only have a small amount of cash on hand.

It does not bother me to give my 12 gold, but I do not want to give 112 gold in the first 100 turns. That gold will catapault that civ.

	10-09-2004 04:14									#8
	Hurm Increase Your PM Length

Not sure what the abbriv. IOW stands for.

Usually have spears becuase in C3C it's so rare for me to get any resources, let alone iron. Horses occasionally. Also those are my police units until I get republic.

Ok, so I'll try the "don't keep cash" method .

Got creamed by the Dutch...I think they're using shaved dice....

SSR

	10-09-2004 04:52									#9
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OK, I'll say it...

SS, until you get a better handle on Monarch: RESTART for better locations!!

	10-09-2004 08:47									#10
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IOW is In Other Words, just some BBS shorthand.

You did not say were you were in the game, but five cities is not that far into the game. I would expect it to be in the BC time frame, unless it is a small or tiny map.

Were you behind 5 techs on all of the civs? Was it a pangea or contients game? I ask as if it was and you have a few expansionist civs in the game, then the ancient techs can get popped from huts and traded very quickly.

Do you have an early save from the game you can post?

	10-09-2004 12:17									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I suck too.

Brother!

	10-09-2004 20:04									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Why is it, that on later time on the game, a rival might want to trade world maps... and want's nuclear power in addition? Are they stupid, or do they think I am?

	10-09-2004 20:30									#13
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I must say I've never had that happen. Then again, I generally make it a point to never trade my WM unless I need to. My current game is well into the modern era, at about 1720 AD, and most of my natively settled lands still have to be a black spot on the remaining AIs' maps. That keeps my map more valuable than theirs, since I've uncovered all but some meaningless ocean tiles.

	10-09-2004 20:37									#14
	Yeah Enter the AD-FREE zone

The computer and trading is always one sided.
Thanks everyone for the advice. Still curious what Gov type is the best to shoot for early game? Like I posted earlier I usually try to get republic and switch to Demo if I'm not at war. Is going Monarchy a better early game strat?

Oh anyone else sign a MPP just to have that Civ to declare war on EVERY other country? Last game where I survived a while (standard 7 opponents) I signed with my neighboor to keep him from attacking me, and he attacked EVERYONE else, AND they all attacked me instead of him. It was an short interesting war.

SSR

	10-09-2004 21:14									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

On Monarch, I typically beeline to republic and don't even think about another change unless I'm religious. Monarchy can be a good option, too, if you're in a crowded area, constantly at war.

	10-09-2004 21:28									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Why is it, that on later time on the game, a rival might want to trade world maps... and want's nuclear power in addition? Are they stupid, or do they think I am?

They view the map as more important than you do as some tiles have changed and they are rated as strong to you, so they want a premium.

	10-09-2004 21:36									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

SSR going to Republic is normal and switching more than once is not something I would do, unless Religious. I do not want those turns of anarchy.

Monarchy is mainly reserved for games where you intend to be at war a great deal or have massive numbers of troops. I would use it on huge maps at Sid and probably no other time.

The idea is you are going to make lots of cities closely space to get all the free unit support you can get. You want the WW free aspect of it as well.

MPP is something I would rarely be involved in. They lead to unwanted wars and untimed. IOW you have little control after you sign them.

The AI is asking for them, because they either fear you (not the case for you) or they intend to go to war and want you off their back.

I would prefer to use alliances instead. The tie up that civ and do not commit me to other conflicts.

	10-09-2004 22:41									#18
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What's going on is that their world map is worth more cash than currently in your treasury, so it's picking your cheapest tech that covers the cost of the map.

This is really leftover from pre-Conquests when WMs could be traded with Map Making and the maps were indeed valued at more than a tech that had been repeately sold.

quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Why is it, that on later time on the game, a rival might want to trade world maps... and want's nuclear power in addition? Are they stupid, or do they think I am?

	10-09-2004 23:03									#19
	Re: I suck, need to vent. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There should be guides on this site on making the jump from Regent to Monarch. It's too much for me to list here and I'd leave out things, but as to the AI waves on any difficulty level:

If the AI is sending multiple units through your territory that aren't excorting settlers in a state of peace, they are after a specific city of yours they think is underdefended.

If that case, you can postpone the war indefinately by placing mobile road blocks that keep their stacks from geting adequant to any of your cities while keeping a route open, no matter how out of the way that route is. Just keep shifting your units.

Note that if you ask them to declare war or leave, they'll declare war, so until you have enough attackers nearby to wipe out the stack don't give them that ultimanium.

Note that AI military units escorting setllers isn't a direct military threat to you, if your okay with them settling on the far side of you, let them pass. If not, set a mobile roadblock. In this case if you ask them to declare war or leave, they'll leave, but on the next turn will just enter your territory again (unless they got moved to the farside of your empire.)

If war has already been declared, the single military unit mobile walls tactic breaks down. In this case, the prime defensive delay action while I'm rushing out units tactic is to leave a city about eight tiles away competly empty with small stacks of defenders sent to the closet city. If the AI actually gets close to that undefended city, swamp out the units from one city to that one and watch the AI head towards the new target.

Above tactic can be combined with fast movement attackers to pick off a unit or two of the stack and run to city to heal and repeat. (Killing Fields.)

Another tactic that can be combined with the first is your own smaller but faster moving stack counterattacking, taking, and leaving empty cities on the other side of the front. AI's SoD will halt going after you and head back to those undefended cities you just took. By the time their close to that city they'll probably be willing to talk peace, so you've gained a city or two.

Oh, one more thing, if your playing against humans these above tactics won't work.

quote: Originally posted by StainlessSteel My first post... hee hee I can't for the life of me get anywhere in a Monarch game. Regent's too easy, but in Monarch, I just can't keep up with the AI. This is in C3C By the time I have 5 cities up the computer is 5-6 techs ahead of me, AND, starts sending over massive waves of archers/warriors/spearmen/swordsmen. Argh, and is it just me that the Dutch HATE? I've been stuck about 20 tiles away from them last 3 games and they ALWAYS declare war 10-20 turns after they find me. No matter how many military units I build. Been reading the advice forums, guess I need to just group up my cities or something. *sigh* Everything was much easier in Regent. SSR

	10-09-2004 23:56									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Be warned that use of undefended cities to thwart the AI is an expoit and should not be used.

It is much easier to learn to build a better empire.

	11-09-2004 00:35									#21
	Doing beter this game Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, I'm doing a bit better this game. Playing Ottoman Empire, Huge, 7 enemies. Like less enemies cause it makes starting out a bit easier, but midgame turns into a real witch.
Got an Awsome starting loc, with Iron. Just traded an Anceint Era tech to my norther neighboors (Spain) For Horses and 2 Luxuries.. They got the tundra area this time, but tons of resources. Waiting for them to get more stuff I need to trade off the rest of my ancient tech.
Korea declared war on me, but was far enough away where my swordsmen were able to get good defensive possitions and pick off enough to discourage him. Payed for a peace treaty (80gp).
I have the Pyramids and Greatwall. Shooting for the Sistine Chapel for the happiness bonus, which I really need.

Babylon just entered the picture, and I'm worried between them and Korea I'm going to loose all the swampland south of me.

Oh I love the mobile blockade trick... kinda like a Military escort through my territory.

SSR

BTW, I keep seeing KAI used... I'm assuming it means that that Civ is nearly unstoppable, but I'm curious the exact wording.

Last edited by StainlessSteel on 11-09-2004 at 01:20

	11-09-2004 01:42									#22
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Killer AI. I've gotten to the point that I encourage the development of these, as it leaves one big civ that I can't just run over at my leisure. Huge with 7 enemies is great for KAI development, especially on a continents map, as you can sit safely to the side, once you control all of your continent, and actively help whichever side of a war you're cultivating without getting involved. Also, the vast space for each civ gives a greater chance of one of them naturally having the resources to develop into a KAI. They will fight amongst themselves, regardless of how much room they have. All you have to do is wait for it and use it as you like.

	11-09-2004 01:46									#23
	Got spare money?

Killer AI. You had it right. BTW we have a thread with most of terms defined.

I would agree that if you found it hard to win before, you will probably run into some real bad boys later with only 8 civs on a huge map.

They will have massive territories and hence lots of troops. to counter that you have to grab a fair amount of land and build a very strong core. A KAI will roll over the other AI's and gain more land.

My opinion is it is a better learning experience to start with standard maps and settings. Then you can find the ones you prefer and adjust.

	11-09-2004 02:29									#24
	This is fun Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Unfortunatly, whenever I play standard I start out within 4-5 turns of an AI. So I thought I'd give myself some breathing room. Also unfortunatly, On huge 7 Civs+me, Continents 70%, 3 other Civs are on my continent. Just got medival Infantry, so as long as I can keep it down to 1 war at a time I'm ok. Bypassing Chivalry until I get Gunpowder researched so I can get my Siphani, used them on regent once before and they're not half bad...

Oh, Spain just got 2 cities destroyed lost a ton of horsemen, and payed me 180gp for a treaty. Now I need to amass enough forces near their horse town to take it over.

Thanks for all the advice so far (thanks on the KAI, of course I found the thread after I posted... stupid search function doesn't work on 3 letter words)

SSR

	11-09-2004 02:52									#25
	Got spare money?

Whoa... I had to read that again... you did 8 total civs on HUGE??!!

[Waiter mode]

"Here is the KAI that you ordered, sir."

[/Waiter mode]



Edit, for Arrian and others:

"Tastes like chicken!! Thank you for flying Church of England, KAI or death?"

Last edited by Theseus on 11-09-2004 at 04:48

	11-09-2004 03:04									#26
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It comes highly recommended, T.

	11-09-2004 03:39									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes Siphs are the bomb for some time to come and an army of them would be something. I don't think I ever had one in the field.

I take that back I did have them, but they were obsolete before I got them.

	11-09-2004 04:55									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi It comes highly recommended, T.

Hey, man, who do you think was one of the first players to focus on them??

Actually, the reason I noticed that SS was talking about 8 civs on Huge was that I had gone back to some friggin' SPREADSHEET I had done over two years ago about the possible generation of KAIs due to distance between civs, total average land tiles per civ, likelhood of strategic resources, and ultimately # of civs per map size, in order to predict the conditions likeliest to gicve rise to same.

I predicted 10 per Large map would be optimal (I'd prolly tweak it down to 8 now, esp. given C3C resource constraints), and that's when I realized SS was referring to a HUGE map!

	11-09-2004 05:06									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hey StainlessSteel, just a tip, try not to get better. As long as the AI remains a challenge at about Monarch the games are more fun.

But in case you really do want to get a lot better and beat the AI on Sid regularly (), check out some of the articles in my signature. The one called "Case for Food" is especially good for people who need some help early in the game.

	11-09-2004 09:21									#30
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Hey, man, who do you think was one of the first players to focus on them??

I know, man, I meant the map settings.

Huge continents with 7 enemies is pretty much my default setting these days, for that very reason.