11-09-2004 03:37									#61
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quote: So while I think you have a right BK to say and show what you want, but your methods are suspect. It is a disturbing trend, being obnoxious, which is primarly utilized by the left.

What other suggestions do you have for us to get the truth out?

I am willing to listen, and I have tried many other suggestions myself, but you must understand that we work under certain constraints.

First of all, the pro-choice club, after we crushed them in debate has staunchly refused to engage our club in rational discussion on this issue.

Less graphic protests, such as a crisis pregnancy table, have been routinely blocked and picketed. so that hardly anyone could walk up to the table.

	11-09-2004 03:39									#62
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quote: You made it personal by giving everyone a handy little potted history. Now apologise to the man or grow a spine.

Don't presume that what I have posted here is the extent of the discussion between myself and Jon, okay?

	11-09-2004 03:40									#63
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Laz, I repeat myself:

quote: So in almost every case, the comparison between abortion and the holocaust is valid.

I am willing to concede this small exception in exchange for full concession of the vast majority of abortions performed.

	11-09-2004 03:41									#64
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Aha! So you've apologised to him by PM, right?

	11-09-2004 03:43									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Laz, I repeat myself: I am willing to concede this small exception in exchange for full concession of the vast majority of abortions performed.

If you're going to compare it to the Holocaust, answer this question.

Tell. Me. The. Small. Exceptions. In. Which. It's. Medically. Justified. To. Gas. Jews.

	11-09-2004 03:43									#66
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Yes.

I don't see how this involves you in any way.

	11-09-2004 03:45									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yes. I don't see how this involves you in any way.

Because you chose to put it on a public forum, Ben. It's not rocket science, is it? I saw no notice saying "Laz is not allowed to form an opinion and/or pass comment on this public declaration".

	11-09-2004 03:45									#68
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quote: If you're going to compare it to the Holocaust, answer this question.

I have already answered this question. Twice.

Try to keep up, eh?

Do you concede that in the vast majority of cases, that there is a valid analogy between abortion and the holocaust?

	11-09-2004 03:46									#69
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Tell. Me. When. It's. Medically. Justified. To. Gas. Jews.

	11-09-2004 03:47									#70
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quote: I saw no notice saying "Laz is not allowed to form an opinion and/or pass comment on this public declaration".

This issue has been resolved between Jon and myself.

If you wish to continue to dredge this up, I'm sure he will appreciate that.

	11-09-2004 03:49									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp If you're going to compare it to the Holocaust, answer this question. Tell. Me. The. Small. Exceptions. In. Which. It's. Medically. Justified. To. Gas. Jews.

It's not a medical reason, but considering all the people the Nazis killed, it seems quite probable that maybe a few of them had murdered someone at some point, making their execution justified.

But the rare exception did not justify the holocaust, and the rare exception does not justify abortion.

	11-09-2004 03:54									#72
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quote: But seriously and honestly, your Holocaust comparison is pathetic, Ben and outrage about it is more than understandable. Just ask yourself what the victims of the Holocaust had to suffer physically and psychologically in the Death Camps for years and then think what a foetus suffers during abortion.

So you do not believe that an unborn child feels any pain during an abortion?

Why then do abortion doctors choose to use anaestetics?

quote: Now please, spare me the details, I accept whatever you say it suffers, but you'll understand that it's not comparable to above.

Why is it not comparable?

quote: Nowhere in my or your society, I see massive propaganda all day long that unborn children are parasites that have to be whiped out collectively and the cause of all the bad in the world, as Nazi propaganda hammered in the heads of Germans every single day in the case of jews.

I have seen propaganda here that unborn children are parasites, and that they are merely blobs of tissue subject to the will of the mother and her doctor.

Plenty of propaganda, over here, and I'm sure over in Europe.

Open your eyes Wernazuma. They may not say that all unborn children ought to be killed, but they insist that the unborn child is not a person, and that only if the child is wanted, should her life be preserved.

They use terminology, such as fetus, blob of tissue, parasite, anything to make sure that people do not believe that the unborn child is a person. The same techniques were used against the Jews in the holocaust, to make it easier to kill them.

The Jews were stripped of their personhood, by the justice systems and the parliaments, just as the unborn children were stripped of theirs for the presumed benefit of the mothers who carry their children.

	11-09-2004 03:54									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It's not a medical reason, but considering all the people the Nazis killed, it seems quite probable that maybe a few of them had murdered someone at some point, making their execution justified.

The Holocaust was the indescriminate slaughter of helpless people without justice, not a criminal trial. Flawed comparison.

quote: But the rare exception did not justify the holocaust, and the rare exception does not justify abortion.

Except for "Good abortions" like ectopics, right? Is that like the "Good Holocausts" you were alluding to?

	11-09-2004 03:58									#74
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quote: The Holocaust was the indescriminate slaughter of helpless people without justice, not a criminal trial. Flawed comparison.

The holocaust was not indiscriminate.

You are the one who is belittling the horror. It was a systematic state policy. It was deliberate. It was directed. It was planned.

Technology was invested to facilitate the killing, strategies shifted to speed up the killing through the use of gas. Barriers were erected between the deaths of the Jews to make sure that people did not see the horror on a daily basis.

There are many parallels between the two.

	11-09-2004 04:01									#75
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quote: Except for "Good abortions" like ectopics, right? Is that like the "Good Holocausts" you were alluding to?

No abortion is good.

None of the holocaust was good.

The only time abortion is justified, is as a desparate measure of last resort, where the mother will die unless the surgery is performed.

This situation is unique, and does not have a comparable analogy to the holocaust.

There are no justified deaths of Jews in the holocaust, no situations where the life of one cannot be preserved except through the death of another.

However, just because one part of the analogy does not work, does not render the rest of the analogy invalid.

Do you concede that in the vast majority of cases, the analogy between abortion and the holocaust is justified?

Answer the question Laz.

	11-09-2004 04:02									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The holocaust was not indiscriminate. You are the one who is belittling the horror. It was a systematic state policy. It was deliberate. It was directed. It was planned. Technology was invested to facilitate the killing, strategies shifted to speed up the killing through the use of gas. Barriers were erected between the deaths of the Jews to make sure that people did not see the horror on a daily basis. There are many parallels between the two.

Abortion isn't systematic state policy.

And life begins at birth, not conception.

	11-09-2004 04:12									#77
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quote: Abortion isn't systematic state policy.

It is publicly funded up here in Canada. The US is slightly different, but there are certainly many people who do wish to see the US fund abortions.

quote: And life begins at birth, not conception.

Why? What's so special about birth?

	11-09-2004 04:14									#78
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Until then the child is not fully human. It doesn't even breathe until it leaves the womb. Conception begins the development of life; life begins when development is complete.

What's so special about conception? Its just implanting egg with sperm.

	11-09-2004 04:15									#79
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quote: And life begins at birth, not conception.

I am sorry, but that is bullshit.

	11-09-2004 04:17									#80
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I love threads like these. I learn things about my fellow Poly people.

	11-09-2004 04:19									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: And life begins at birth, not conception. I am sorry, but that is bullshit.

Whatever man. Why is it bullshit? Why does life have to begin at conception?

	11-09-2004 04:20									#82
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Whatever man.

Perhaps you'd care to go into a little more detail about the definition of life you seem to be using. Textbook authors the world over wait with baited breath.

	11-09-2004 04:23									#83
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The ovum (egg) is supposedly "life" but is released every month. Why does life begin at conception and not with the creation of an egg?

	11-09-2004 04:25									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Perhaps you'd care to go into a little more detail about the definition of life you seem to be using. Textbook authors the world over wait with baited breath.

	11-09-2004 04:27									#85
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I really hate it when people avoid such simple questions when they make such bullshit statement.

	11-09-2004 04:29									#86
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quote: Why is it bullshit? Why does life have to begin at conception?

I never said it did. All I claim is that it's weird to claim that abortion is ok at any stage of the pregnancy, except risk of life, or stuff like that. I am for the morning-after pill. I am for abortion the first month or two of pregnancy, if a pregnancy occured despite the precautions, or if a severe developmental or genetic disability was shown. However, I do not think that a fetus' life is something that can be dismissed by a wave of a hand. Because if that is the case, it's ok to kill newborns, as well. There is no difference between ending the life of an 8-month fetus, or a newborn.

	11-09-2004 04:31									#87
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That's not a question.

I don't believe a person is a person until born. How much more do I have to get in to? I believe in God, but I don't have to put why I believe in God on the table, nor do I have to say anything more than "why I believe in God". Its a personal thing. There's no proof God exists, but there's no proof God DOESN'T exist. There's no definite proof that life begins at conception, birth, or before. Therefore, I believe that life begins at birth, simply because the fetus isn't fully developed and capable until it is out of the womb, including the fact that it doesn't breathe on its own until it exits.

	11-09-2004 04:32									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel There is no difference between ending the life of an 8-month fetus, or a newborn.

Except that I've drawn the line at birth, as some draw the line at conception, and some elsewhere. For me, that is where the difference is.

	11-09-2004 04:34									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First of all, the pro-choice club, after we crushed them in debate has staunchly refused to engage our club in rational discussion on this issue.

Did you manage to present valid arguments in defense of your stance, or did you just conveniently forget to answer any of their questions like you usually do?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I really hate it when people avoid such simple questions when they make such bullshit statement.

I'd think that there wouldn't be any debate on the subject if it were such a simple question, and/or that the Emperor's statement could have been crushed to smithereens by a counterargument rather than having it be painfully whittled away with the Socratic method.

	11-09-2004 04:36									#90
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous That's not a question.

Of course it is. Here I'll even highlight it for you sense you seem to have trouble finding it: Perhaps you'd care to go into a little more detail about the definition of life you seem to be using.

quote: I don't believe a person is a person until born.

I don't really care what you do or do not believe on that point as it is irrelevent to the statement you made and have thus far refused to clarify in any meaningful sense.