11-09-2004 09:02									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I really do want to see a protest involving gay pornography with graphic images right across from Ben's little exhibit. Hell, let's throw in audio too for good measure. I think it would be incredible to see him justify his graphic exhibit but take issue with the other.

I'll be there

	11-09-2004 09:18									#122
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quote: Actually, the comparisons are valid, and there are many parallels with the holocaust and with abortion.

I was trying to be reasonable and unbiased in my last post, Ben, but honestly, you're just being a troll, and a bad one at that.

You got some responses, but the few worth anything (like Laz) was just repetition, just like everything else you ever drag abortion into.

Ben: "Abortion is like the Holocaust!"
Everyone else: "[refutation] Now explain why it's like it?"
Ben: "Abortion is like the Holocaust! [repeats self]"
Everyone else: "no, [qoute], explain"
Ben: "Abortion is LIKE the HOLOCAUST! [pete and pete]"

	11-09-2004 09:50									#123
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In programming we call that an infinite loop. This eventually uses up all the memory and causes a crash.

	11-09-2004 11:01									#124
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quote: How many protests have ever changed your mind?

Quite a few. The anti-apartheid protests in New Zealand in 1981 opened me up to all sorts of new ideas.

The 1999 WTO protest was also an eye-opener.

quote: How many conversations over a meal and a beer have opened you up to thinking differently?

Thousands... but it has to do with drinking with other philosophers.

	11-09-2004 12:23									#125
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quote: I really do want to see a protest involving gay pornography with graphic images right across from Ben's little exhibit. Hell, let's throw in audio too for good measure. I think it would be incredible to see him justify his graphic exhibit but take issue with the other.

Go ahead and try such an exhibit.

I won't stop you.

	11-09-2004 12:24									#126
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quote: You got some responses, but the few worth anything (like Laz) was just repetition, just like everything else you ever drag abortion into.

I already answered Lazarus' question, and my answer has been ignored.

So what do you want me to do?

	11-09-2004 12:29									#127
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quote: Why does life have to begin at conception?

Good question.

Human life begins at conception, because genetically that is when an entity distinct from the parents forms in the womb of the mother.

Biologically, what makes this entity living, is that what comes afterwards, the infant, is also living, and what comes before, the sperm and egg, are also living.

Living things can only come from living things. They cannot come from dead objects.

So if the infant is living, and so is sperm, then so must the unborn child in between.

Now, this living entity is human, because all species replicate after their kind. If the parents providing the genetic material are human, than so will be the offspring.

So, with all of this forming at conception, it makes sense to say that conception is when human life begins.

	11-09-2004 12:32									#128
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quote: People just can't follow the commons sense rule of being polite anymore. Aparently if I can't advocate a cause by screaming then it shouldn't be worth my time. Of course the cause is usually not the reason their screaming.

Who's screaming? Certainly not our volunteers.

Our opponents may try to shout over us, but will we just have to get closer to the people who are trying to have a conversation, so that they can hear us.

Or if you're like me, you ignore the noise, and try to help the other person who's having more trouble hearing you, than I am to him.

If you went to one of our displays, you'd understand.

	11-09-2004 12:32									#129
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Right- let's bust this thing wide open.

Ben, by his own tacit admission, accepts that some terminations are medically justified- such as ectopics.

Therefore he has just accepted that there are circumstances in which medical action is justified to intervene, by means of weighing the rights of the foetus against the rights of the mother and concluding that the termination of the pregnancy is acceptable.

Once you cross that boundary, you're now on the sliding scale of discussing not if it's acceptable but when it;s acceptable. Here goes....

Is it justified when the mother faces a 100% certainty of death if the pregnancy continues?

What about 99%?

What about 95?

What about 65%?

What about 25%?

What about 5%

At what point do you say to the mother "The risk of your death is sufficiently small that we're going to force you to go through with it."?

Then don't stop there. What about non-lethal consequences? What about severe mental illness? Not just severe depression, but something like Hebrephenia or permanent Catatonia? Death with a pulse? Is it justified when there's a 100% likelihood of that happening? Or a 50%? Or a 10%?

What about complex cumulative factors? How about if there's a 30% chance that the baby's anencephalic, combined with a 10% chance that eclampsia will cause severe health risks to the mothere and a 15% chance that she'll be depressed for several years after?

Let's have some precise answers, please. Then explain to me why your position on this sliding scale of value calls bears the weight of God, Allah, Buddha and/or the bloke down the pub whereas mine doesn't?

Then, just to cap things off, explain to me the sliding scale of circumstances under which you consider the Holocaust to be ustified.

	11-09-2004 12:39									#130
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quote: Did you manage to present valid arguments in defense of your stance, or did you just conveniently forget to answer any of their questions like you usually do?

Well, back then, I was a pro-abort, so I went to cheer on my cousin who was debating on the other side. She's an accomplished debater. Her partner was the Erin Kaiser already mentioned.

The prolife club brought in a doctor and a lawyer, both practicing, and both active members of the club. The lawyer kept baiting Erin, who got so angry she started shouting at the lawyer.

It was so embarrassing, that 5 years later, they still refuse to debate our club.

quote: I'd think that there wouldn't be any debate on the subject if it were such a simple question, and/or that the Emperor's statement could have been crushed to smithereens by a counterargument rather than having it be painfully whittled away with the Socratic method.

Well, I have presented the argument below, and I think it's a strong case. Notice the Emperor, rather than offering a defense of his own position as to why birth ought to be considered the beginning of human life, chooses to make me justify my view.

That alone should be enough to convince you that the Emperor Fabulous has nothing to back up his statements.

	11-09-2004 12:41									#131
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quote: posted by AzazelI never said it did. All I claim is that it's weird to claim that abortion is ok at any stage of the pregnancy, except risk of life, or stuff like that. I am for the morning-after pill. I am for abortion the first month or two of pregnancy, if a pregnancy occured despite the precautions, or if a severe developmental or genetic disability was shown. However, I do not think that a fetus' life is something that can be dismissed by a wave of a hand. Because if that is the case, it's ok to kill newborns, as well. There is no difference between ending the life of an 8-month fetus, or a newborn.

Signed.
The morning-after pill is how my son Daniel was NOT prevented. He was stronger than the condom and stronger than the morning-after pill. He still is a very strong-willed child. And no, BK, I don't feel we'd have killed DANIEL if the pill had worked, we'd have simply prevented him from coming into existence, like we do every month with the pill or condoms. (As someone stated, everyone draws the line at another point.)


And Ben, I really fail to understand how you partitioned my quotes. When you ask:

quote: So you do not believe that an unborn child feels any pain during an abortion?

and add

quote: Why then do abortion doctors choose to use anaestetics?

you find my disclaimer right in the next quote

quote: Now please, spare me the details, I accept whatever you say it suffers

, meaning I accept for the sake of not getting more into it whatever you say it suffers. The point is that holocaust was meant to eradicate jews as a collective and abortion is not meant to eradicate fetuses as a collective, people in the holocaust suffered for years, fetuses, even if for now in the argument I grant them full humanity, suffer, under anaestetics, a few minutes.

I don't see any accusation of the unborn, unlike Nazi propaganda against the jews. I have never in my life heard anyone call a fetus a "parasite", actually I never see pro-choice propaganda that would make a hate statement against the unborn. But very often, when I go downtown, I have to pass these guys wearing posters with pictures of dead unborn. I really wonder on which side the propaganda is.

	11-09-2004 12:42									#132
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Incidentally, returning to the subject matter of this thread, here's my advice to anyone bothered by pro-lifers using graphic medical imagery in protests.

Don't get angry. Get subversive.

Make big posters graphically detailing medical processes in bloody detail. Ideally have enough of these that you'll outnumber the pro-life posters by about 20 to 1. Then just crowd around so that they are ablut two thirds of the way along the line. Ensure that the really gruesome ones are at the ends and middle, like a hemorrhoidectomy or something. Talk, in visceral detail, about the blood and gristle resulting.

By the process of overkill, you have exercised your freedom of speech. Rather than turning a protest into a drama that will get people into trouble, you will have turned it into performance art.

And any sane person, faced with performance art, will just walk away.

	11-09-2004 12:44									#133
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Back when I first started teaching abortion ethics I had a woman in tutorials who said that her sister just couldn't stop getting pregnant. It was ridiculous, apparently she'd tried everything short of sterilization and it still hadn't worked. So she decided that she was destined to have a lot of children and aimed to enjoy herself.

I liked her style.

	11-09-2004 12:46									#134
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*coredump*

	11-09-2004 12:46									#135
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And now, just to keep Ben happy.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Do you concede that in the vast majority of cases, that there is a valid analogy between abortion and the holocaust?

No. Not even remotely. I also think the comparison is an insult to holocaust survivors.

Your Holocaust comparison is flawed.

	11-09-2004 12:49									#136
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quote: Ben, by his own tacit admission, accepts that some terminations are medically justified- such as ectopics.

True, because it is better to save one life than to allow both to die. Either way the child will die.

quote: Therefore he has just accepted that there are circumstances in which medical action is justified to intervene, by means of weighing the rights of the foetus against the rights of the mother and concluding that the termination of the pregnancy is acceptable.

No, in an ectopic pregnancy, because we currently lack the means to save the child, you are not balancing one right against another, but rather, you are saying that there is only one right to consider, the mother.

Should it be possible to save the life of the child along with the mother, than abortion in the case of an ectopic pregnancy would not be justified.

quote: At what point do you say to the mother "The risk of your death is sufficiently small that we're going to force you to go through with it."?

I make no such consideration. An ectopic pregnancy will kill the mother, so such considerations do not enter the debate.

quote: Then don't stop there. What about non-lethal consequences? What about severe mental illness? Not just severe depression, but something like Hebrephenia or permanent Catatonia? Death with a pulse? Is it justified when there's a 100% likelihood of that happening? Or a 50%? Or a 10%?

If you can suggest medical conditions which are likely to result from pregnancy that bring about these conditions, then I am willing to consider each in turn.

Secondly, you not only need to show that these conditions are likely, but that it is also not possible to induce premature labour in order to save the life of both the child and the mother.

Finally, consider this. Abortion is not without risk factors. Abortion is not 100% safe. How tragic would it be to tell the mother to have an abortion because she may die, and have her die on the operating table anyways?

quote: What about complex cumulative factors? How about if there's a 30% chance that the baby's anencephalic, combined with a 10% chance that eclampsia will cause severe health risks to the mothere and a 15% chance that she'll be depressed for several years after?

Eclampsia. Thank you. Is it possible for the mother to have labour prematurely induced to avoid the worst consequences of eclampsia?

quote: Let's have some precise answers, please. Then explain to me why your position on this sliding scale of value calls bears the weight of God, Allah, Buddha and/or the bloke down the pub whereas mine doesn't?

I've never said that your opinions are not without merit, nor that they bear more consideration than my own.

Neither do I base my reasoning upon religious teachings. So can't you leave that battered strawman at home?

quote: Then, just to cap things off, explain to me the sliding scale of circumstances under which you consider the Holocaust to be ustified.

I have already told you what I believe. I suggest you read my prior answer so that I do not have to repeat myself once again.

	11-09-2004 12:52									#137
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I think the key admission we want to see is that the Holocaust was not justified at all, whereas abortions sometimes are.

Do you think that's a fair comment?

	11-09-2004 12:54									#138
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quote: Make big posters graphically detailing medical processes in bloody detail. Ideally have enough of these that you'll outnumber the pro-life posters by about 20 to 1. Then just crowd around so that they are ablut two thirds of the way along the line. Ensure that the really gruesome ones are at the ends and middle, like a hemorrhoidectomy or something. Talk, in visceral detail, about the blood and gristle resulting. By the process of overkill, you have exercised your freedom of speech. Rather than turning a protest into a drama that will get people into trouble, you will have turned it into performance art. And any sane person, faced with performance art, will just walk away.

Well, that's a very creative approach.

However this requires two concessions.

1. It is perfectly okay for you to use gross pictures to get your point across.

2. That we are perfectly justified in bringing GAP on campus.

Both of these concessions are fatal to the current pro abortion movement on campus. They refuse to admit that there can be any such right to freedom of expression.

	11-09-2004 12:55									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, in an ectopic pregnancy, because we currently lack the means to save the child, you are not balancing one right against another, but rather, you are saying that there is only one right to consider, the mother. Should it be possible to save the life of the child along with the mother, than abortion in the case of an ectopic pregnancy would not be justified.

So if it's merely 99% certain that the mother will die, abortion is not justified?

	11-09-2004 12:57									#140
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quote: I think the key admission we want to see is that the Holocaust was not justified at all, whereas abortions sometimes are. Do you think that's a fair comment?

No. Abortions are not justified in 99% of the cases in which they are performed.

If you are willing to agree with me on this point, then I have no further argument with you, and I am willing to drop the entire analogy with the holocaust.

After all, abortion, by the numbers, cannot adequately be represented by the holocaust. To compare abortion with the holocaust misrepresents the true tragedy of abortion.

	11-09-2004 13:01									#141
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quote: So if it's merely 99% certain that the mother will die, abortion is not justified?

Is such the case in eclampsia?

Or is this just a hypothetical with no bearing in reality?

Are you willing to agree with me that abortion is not justified in all other cases?

	11-09-2004 13:06									#142
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quote: Delivery is the treatment of choice for eclampsia in a pregnancy over 28 weeks. For pregnancies less than 24 weeks, the induction of labor is recommended, although the likelihood of a viable fetus is minimal.

http://health.yahoo.com/health/cent...gnancy/422.html

So I have to concede nothing with respect to eclampsia.

	11-09-2004 13:07									#143
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No. We've only just started on that sliding scale of value calls I mentioned earlier.

What if the risk of death to the mother is only 30% Ben? Would you force her to go to term then?

	11-09-2004 13:08									#144
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The problem with abortion is that the key element in any argument about it (the issue of fetal personhood) is essentially a religious matter.

Given the necessity of the separation of church and state in multifaith societies, the government cannot rule on this. Hence, abortion is a matter of individual conscience.

If God exists, then let him sort out the aborters.

	11-09-2004 13:12									#145
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quote: What if the risk of death to the mother is only 30% Ben? Would you force her to go to term then?

Answer my question first.

I have answered many of yours, and you have not answered any of mine.

Are you willing to say that abortion, in all other cases, ought to be considered illegal?

	11-09-2004 13:14									#146
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quote: The problem with abortion is that the key element in any argument about it (the issue of fetal personhood) is essentially a religious matter.

Is it?

Have any of my arguments in this thread been based on religious principles?

Again, I suggest tackling the arguments before you rather than making up your own strawmen.

	11-09-2004 13:15									#147
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I'll think you find I have, and very clearly.

No I certainly don't think abortion in all other cases should be made illegal.

What if the risk of death to the mother is only 30% Ben? Would you force her to go to term then?

	11-09-2004 13:21									#148
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quote: I'll think you find I have, and very clearly. No I certainly don't think abortion in all other cases should be made illegal.

Then why do you care about the percentage?

Obviously you will not agree with me regardless of what percentage I cite so this exercise is pointless.

	11-09-2004 13:22									#149
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quote: Have any of my arguments in this thread been based on religious principles?

Perhaps not, but our notion of a "person" is extremely plastic. Almost everyone agrees that children are persons at birth (I think this is somewhat dubious, but I am in the minority). The abortion debate asks us whether fetuses are persons. There is no way you can decide this one way or the other that doesn't introduce ridiculous counterexamples or require dubious metaphysics to back it up. No one has thus far managed to provide a set of necessary and sufficient conditions that would prove that fetuses are persons, and no one has managed to prove that they aren't. Our concept of personhood is being asked to take a weight it was never expected to bear.

In the end, it is a matter for decision and not for debate.

	11-09-2004 13:25									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then why do you care about the percentage? Obviously you will not agree with me regardless of what percentage I cite so this exercise is pointless.

No it isn't. It'll show we both accept a grey scale, Ben. A sliding scale of opinions and justifications as to when abortion is justified. Why are you being so coy on this matter?

30% chance of death to the mother, Ben. Is abortion justified then? Give me an answer. Yes or no.