11-09-2004 04:39									#91
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Exactly how much more do I have to say, besides:

quote: Therefore, I believe that life begins at birth, simply because the fetus isn't fully developed and capable until it is out of the womb, including the fact that it doesn't breathe on its own until it exits.

	11-09-2004 04:39									#92
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quote: Except that I've drawn the line at birth, as some draw the line at conception, and some elsewhere. For me, that is where the difference is.

Well, you've drawn the line, and it's good for you, but what does that argument have to do with reality? The creation of conscience in the fetus is a gradual process, it would be foolish to point at some time, and say "Aha, that's it!". So, I think that options for early abortion should exist, due to failure of contraceptives, etc., but this is no issue to **** around with.

And leave god out of this. It's not really relevant ( You see, I am an atheist, and still I am closer to "pro-life" than too "pro-choice")

	11-09-2004 04:39									#93
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I'd think that there wouldn't be any debate on the subject

The debate isn't on when life begins or at least it shouldn't be (it's not as if the woman has a rock growing in her uterus). The debate centers on when it becomes "human" in the existential sense.

	11-09-2004 04:41									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Except that I've drawn the line at birth, as some draw the line at conception, and some elsewhere. For me, that is where the difference is. Well, you've drawn the line, and it's good for you, but what does that argument have to do with reality? The creation of conscience in the fetus is a gradual process, it would be foolish to point at some time, and say "Aha, that's it!". So, I think that options for early abortion should exist, due to failure of contraceptives, etc., but this is no issue to **** around with. And leave god out of this. It's not really relevant ( You see, I am an atheist, and still I am closer to "pro-life" than too "pro-choice")

God wasn't used DIRECTLY to my argument...just as a side note.

I just don't feel fetuses are complete until they leave the womb. That's the line I've drawn. It appears that you may have drawn a line too, though yours is a different type of line.

	11-09-2004 04:43									#95
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous I just don't feel fetuses are complete until they leave the womb.

That makes no sense. What's so magical about breathing air that seperates a child 5 seconds after leaving the uterus from 5 seconds before leaving?

	11-09-2004 04:47									#96
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That makes no sense. What's so magical about breathing air that seperates a child 5 seconds after leaving the uterus from 5 seconds before leaving?

The fact that it is complete. Before then it isn't.

	11-09-2004 04:48									#97
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I've got the same problem Dino has got.

Now, I haven't drawn a line. I just came up with a solution that to me, seems fair to all: a possiblity of abortion during the very early stages of pregnancy.

	11-09-2004 04:49									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I've got the same problem Dino has got. Now, I haven't drawn a line. I just came up with a solution that to me, seems fair to all: a possiblity of abortion during the very early stages of pregnancy.

No, you did draw a line. You won't go into the late stages of pregnancy. Also, you made circumstances. What about if the mother is going to have a child, then decides simply that she doesn't want it? I don't agree with that either, but it is a line that has been drawn. What's wrong with me drawing the line at birth?

	11-09-2004 04:52									#99
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous The fact that it is complete. Before then it isn't.

You're still talking gibberish.

	11-09-2004 04:53									#100
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quote: No, you did draw a line. You won't go into the late stages of pregnancy.

umm how a vague-ass definition like "late stages of pregnancy" is anything resembling drawing a line? I just said that abortion, on itself, is wrong, but there may be sircumstances under which it would be better to abort the embryo/fetus/whatever.

quote: Also, you made circumstances. What about if the mother is going to have a child, then decides simply that she doesn't want it?

Well what if she already had the baby, and now decides she doesn't want it? Should she be able to kill him? obviously not.

	11-09-2004 04:58									#101
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're still talking gibberish.

I've already said why I believe what I believe. Twice. Now you're just being an ass.

	11-09-2004 05:01									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: No, you did draw a line. You won't go into the late stages of pregnancy. umm how a vague-ass definition like "late stages of pregnancy" is anything resembling drawing a line? I just said that abortion, on itself, is wrong, but there may be sircumstances under which it would be better to abort the embryo/fetus/whatever.

You said a vague-ass statment of "early stages". That's a line. The circumstances which you'll abort is a line. My line is birth.

quote: quote: Also, you made circumstances. What about if the mother is going to have a child, then decides simply that she doesn't want it? Well what if she already had the baby, and now decides she doesn't want it? Should she be able to kill him? obviously not.

You're right...because its fully formed, and thus, in my opinion, a human life.

You'll probably use the argument saying "oh, well then why doesn't abortion extend out to two years after birth then?" Because, in our society, the opinion stands and some abortions but certainly none after birth. In some societies, it wasn't wrong to kill anything until it reached adulthood. We've drawn a line, just as everyone everywhere will draw a line. It just happens, as I see it, that conception is not that line.

	11-09-2004 05:02									#103
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Great! Another abortion thread.

As for the main topic, this is complete baloney. Universities are in a permanent state of a war of ideas. In some subjects the right has been losing for years, in some the left. Sometimes one side feels beaten down, sometimes the other. That's just life.

I have only ever seen one Professor ever get really political in a lecture, and that was over the Guantanamo detentions. That's once in over 10 years of studying and teaching.

About the most political I get is to make jokes about Bush - which everyone seems to enjoy, even the more conservative students.

I was once taught by a radical Marxist. I didn't find out he was a radical Marxist until years later, since he had disguised himself so well I thought he was a Thatcherite.

	11-09-2004 05:08									#104
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quote: You said a vague-ass statment of "early stages". That's a line. The circumstances which you'll abort is a line. My line is birth.

Actually, my solution doesn't have an arbitrary line of time. I am proposing that a board of people would review each request and would make a decision on that. The guidelines would be as I described them.

quote: You're right...because its fully formed, and thus, in my opinion, a human life.

But it's not fully formed! The brain of a child continues to develope after birth, unrestrained by th womb. It's a mechanism allowing women to give birth more easily.

	11-09-2004 05:14									#105
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quote: Well they probably scream about freedom, yet they don't allow others to have their freedom. They're just hypocrites.

They're also called liberals.

	11-09-2004 05:28									#106
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Ugh, another abortion debate.... This thread is totally off-topic. If it wouldn't be a supreme irony, I'd suggest the moderators shut it down. heh.

	11-09-2004 06:05									#107
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At some point we'll have the technology so that the mother can remove the child, and the child can still live outside the womb. Does the issue go away, or do we finally see the real arguments of each side then?

	11-09-2004 06:07									#108
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Agreed Smiley. I think we'll finally be able to end abortion then. Though possibly see the pro-choicers true colors. But I don't see why they'd want to kill the fetus, if it can be removed safely.

	11-09-2004 06:08									#109
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Billboard-sized full colour photos of aborted fetuses and imagery comparing women who have abortions and abortion providers to Nazis is not free speech, BK.

How the hell isn't it?

	11-09-2004 06:11									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It is absolutely fair. Let's say it was for a women's rights groups protesting how pornography exploits women.

Sure, why not.

	11-09-2004 06:14									#111
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It is FS, it is just obnoxious.

Some people should understand if you make a point, right or wrong, and people don't listen to you it isn't because they didn't hear you, it is because they don't agree with you. Not permission to yell louder.

Now you can amplify your position by formulating new and more persuasive arguements, finding a different media outlet or whatnot. But that does not mean losing your self respect or acting like an ass is in order. Your billboards were wrong, if you are at a protest doing anything but standing in an agreed upon space holding signs you are wrong.

In fact all such displays and protests do is galvinize your resistance.

	11-09-2004 06:14									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker How the hell isn't it?

Because he feels like justifying his criminal activity.

	11-09-2004 06:15									#113
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Nudity has always been a special case because it was the only originally obcine thing mentioned, which is a pity because many more should have.

	11-09-2004 06:17									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos It is FS, it is just obnoxious.

So?

quote: Some people should understand if you make a point, right or wrong, and people don't listen to you it isn't because they didn't hear you, it is because they don't agree with you. Not permission to yell louder. Now you can amplify your position by formulating new and more persuasive arguements, finding a different media outlet or whatnot. But that does not mean losing your self respect or acting like an ass is in order. Your billboards were wrong, if you are at a protest doing anything but standing in an agreed upon space holding signs you are wrong. In fact all such displays and protests do is galvinize your resistance.

So?

	11-09-2004 06:24									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Considering the pride parades we get, that would just fit in.

Vancouver pride parades feature hardcore pornography?! Count me in!

	11-09-2004 06:25									#116
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Just my opinion.

People just can't follow the commons sense rule of being polite anymore. Aparently if I can't advocate a cause by screaming then it shouldn't be worth my time. Of course the cause is usually not the reason their screaming.

How many protests have ever changed your mind? How many conversations over a meal and a beer have opened you up to thinking differently?

	11-09-2004 06:28									#117
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What's your point?

	11-09-2004 06:30									#118
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I really do want to see a protest involving gay pornography with graphic images right across from Ben's little exhibit. Hell, let's throw in audio too for good measure.

I think it would be incredible to see him justify his graphic exhibit but take issue with the other.

	11-09-2004 08:55									#119
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Why are pictures of nude adults not OK but pictures of nude fetuses OK?

	11-09-2004 09:00									#120
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Well aparently because they are not people.