14-09-2004 20:18									#61
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quote: 1) The people somehow choose their government and who leads them 2) The government exists to serve the people, not the other way around

dirty commie.

	14-09-2004 20:30									#62
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Not exactly in league with Palpatine , but getting there

	14-09-2004 20:35									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We had massive corruption in our government from the end of the Civil War until roughly the turn of the century. We didn't get rid of it be contracting the rights of the people. We fought to create a more honest government.

But in 1865 we already had 30+ years experience of democracy, and before that 70 years of a quasidemocratic liberal republic, and before that generations of the rule of law going back to 1688, and before that a tradition of common law and limits on the sovereign going far back in the english political tradition.

The Russians had centuries of backwards absolutism, then a century of modernizing tsarist absolutism, then a couple of years (1905-1914) of tsarism with very modest parliamentary institutions, than a few months of a transitional democratic republic, then Bolshevism, and then a few years of chaotic transition under Yeltsin

civ 2 is actually very good on this - if youve been going steadily from monarchy to republic to democracy, by the time you get to demo youve probably got the improvements and wonders to make demo work. If you go from a long stretch of fundie or commie to demo, theres a good chance you dont have those, and the transition is more challenging (assuming the casual players the game was designed for, not the super players here whove got everything figured out)

	14-09-2004 22:02									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If corruption is a problem, the answer is not to end democracy. The answer is for the Feds to step in and toss out the corrupt leaders. Of course, the Republics only mirror the Federal level. Where is the independent media criticizing Putin?

Nothing Putin did was undemocratic, especially since there is corruption and loyalty problems. All he's doing is centralizing power of govt so that problems can be dealt with. If sucessfull democracy in Russia will be enhanced.

	14-09-2004 22:07									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker NYE - Yes, if that governor was elected (assuming the efficacy of your analogy). It's up to the people and their elected government to arrest corrupt members of that government, not someone outside of the democratic process.

They broke the law and abused their duty. They should be arrested and removed.

	14-09-2004 22:39									#66
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark (assuming the casual players the game was designed for, not the super players here whove got everything figured out)

It's TEH ONMISCIENT LORD GOD PUTIN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!

	14-09-2004 23:00									#67
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I'm suprised American Liberals would complain about this, they usually like the idea of stronger federal power.

	14-09-2004 23:02									#68
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Our Federal government doesn't concentrate all the power in the hands of one man.

	15-09-2004 04:29									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Not exactly in league with Palpatine , but getting there

@ Palpatine

	15-09-2004 04:46									#70
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I suppose Putin really has no choice if he wants to keep Russia's boundries as they are. Apparently Russians are content to lose certain liberties in order to keep Russia intact.

	15-09-2004 04:48									#71
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Well, I guess Americans and Russians have more in common than I thought...

	15-09-2004 15:16									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Serb One more thing, this new mechanism means deal between the region and federation- the head of state offers pool of candidates and local parliament of the region choose one of the candidates. Is it so undemocratic?

YES.

Very undemocratic. Thank you.

	15-09-2004 17:54									#73
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Well, I guess Americans and Russians have more in common than I thought...

Yeah Bush is ready to introduce direct rule on the states and take NBC, CBS and ABC off the air.

	15-09-2004 18:28									#74
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I'm talking about the people, not the government. I was replying to your post.

I'm sorry it wasn't clear with my lack of [quote]s.







Ass

	15-09-2004 18:35									#75
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Is that what you say when someone points out you said something stupid?

	15-09-2004 18:39									#76
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quote: Apparently Russians are content to lose certain liberties in order to keep Russia intact.

quote: Well, I guess Americans and Russians have more in common than I thought...

How is that stupid? Its true! Russians are willing to give up liberties to keep their country intact, while Americans are willing to give up liberty to keep sense of security intact.

	15-09-2004 20:12									#77
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I hope to god he brings back the good ol' Hammer and Sickle!

	15-09-2004 20:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by bipolarbear I hope to god he brings back the good ol' Hammer and Sickle!

He may start calling himself Czar before too long

	16-09-2004 06:54									#79
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion YES. Very undemocratic. Thank you.

Then where have you been so long?
1) We already had this system for governors in 1993-1994.
2) We have absolutely the same system for election of PM. The head of state offers his candidate for prime minister and our parliament approve or doesn't approve this candidate. Now Putin offers ABSOLUTELY the same scheme for governors.
3) This scheme DOESN'T contradict with our constitution.
4) The citizens of the brightest example of democracy, the last hope of human kind, the US of A of course, do not have "non of the above" option when they vote and do not elect their presidents directly. Does it mean US of A isn't democracy?
5) Why the hell every democracy should be identical?

	16-09-2004 07:10									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson It is pretty strange, then. Because if it is needed to fight terrorism, I guess it should be done at once. If the old gouvernors can stay, I guess they don't trouble Putin in the case of war against terrorism, and yet He says the changes are needed to fight terrorism....

1) He thought about this reform before 9/3, I'm sure.
2) Since this new law doesn't exist yet, it's only an offer so far, I can't say for sure, but I suspect this new law will contain a mechanism for withdrawal of governors (it's something that we lack now). So governors will be way more controllable now, but it's only my guess.

quote: Personally, I don't think that anti-democratic aspect of this reform is the most iimportant one. This reform centralises the state and gives even more power in hands of the head of the state. It will strenghten Russia as a whole.

And of course it scares you to death, right?

quote: Putin can still be interested personally in a strong power of president after ceasing to be a president: taken into account his popularity, He won't have problems with puting some his man on the sit.

I don't see any problem with that.

quote: Go democracy!

Don't worry. If will go, we'll take you with us. We are brothers, as you say and relatives should be kept close.

	16-09-2004 07:34									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We had massive corruption in our government from the end of the Civil War until roughly the turn of the century. We didn't get rid of it be contracting the rights of the people. We fought to create a more honest government. Russians don't want to do the hard work necessary to take control of their government. They're lazy and want a strongman to do it for them. Sad.

I actually do not see how Russians cannot control their government anymore.
I am a voter. I elect my representative for the parliament of my region. Then the parliament of my region approve or doesn't approve a president's candidate for governor. So, yes, I do not directly elect my governor, but I do it through my representative in local parliament. My representative in local parliament should care about opinion of his voters, if his voters will be unhappy about his actions he will not be re-elected,
Is it so undemocratic? Is it reduce my rights so much?
AFAIK, you in US do not elect your presidents directly, but do it throught your representatives. Does it reduce your rights?

	16-09-2004 07:52									#82
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pssst. Serb. Parliamentary systems.

We don't elect our prime ministers or premiers. Our pm's and 'govenors' are the leaders of their parties. They can be changed without us having any say at all. During elections we don't have the opportunity to vote for the leader directly. Instead we have to choose who to vote for on a mix of party leader, party policy, and individual merits of candidates in our ridings.

I think the objection to Putin's proposal would be that it is top down. That would be what jars to many. Sort of like how many North Americans view the French ban on religious clothing in schools. It's totally alien in a free society, isn't it? Maybe, but our societies do not have to deal with the same history or conditions as the French.

	16-09-2004 08:20									#83
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And remind me who is your head of state, isn't it British queen by chance?

	16-09-2004 08:32									#84
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That's going below the belt.

It must seem really strange to people who don't live in parliamentary monarchies. It seems strange to a good number who do.

I like it. We don't have the sort of **** fests that I have observed in some other places.

	16-09-2004 08:56									#85
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's going below the belt.

Sorry.

	16-09-2004 13:43									#86
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How exactly is making Putin dictator for life going to solve Russia's problems again?

	16-09-2004 15:04									#87
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And who said he is dictator for life?
He will left the office in 2008.

	16-09-2004 15:07									#88
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quote: And who said he is dictator for life? He will left the office in 2008.

	16-09-2004 15:33									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Serb And who said he is dictator for life? He will left the office in 2008.

Or change the constitution
Or make a puppet inherit his place

	16-09-2004 15:37									#90
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The more I think about it, the less I like it. It's a huge mistake. I am very disappointed.

Serb, what about the national republics? Won't they deeply resent no longer being able to elect their own leader? Their leader being appointed by Moscow will eventually lead to more nationalism and separatism. WTF is Putin thinking about?! Rather than saving Russia, he will only destroy it.

Hell, this is actually my first ever serious disagreement with Putin's policies (after the anthem issue at least). But this issue is so huge and decisive that I wonder whether I can still consider myself a supporter of Putin.