16-09-2004 15:40									#91
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ah Russians, what rights? 10 years of some freedom, .. they won't mind,

	16-09-2004 15:56									#92
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Serb, what about the national republics? Won't they deeply resent no longer being able to elect their own leader? Their leader being appointed by Moscow will eventually lead to more nationalism and separatism. WTF is Putin thinking about?! Rather than saving Russia, he will only destroy it.

Exactly. It is this kind of centralism that stirred so much nationalism in the Societ Republics, which effectively killed the USSR.
When Yeltsin made Russia a federation, he avoided the territory to shrink again. The USSR that fell in front of Lithuanian or Georgian independentists was much stronger than today's Russia, which cannot even deal with the spearatist wishes of a small Republic like Chechnya. What will happen if centralization is back?

Hell, this is actually my first ever serious disagreement with Putin's policies (after the anthem issue at least). But this issue is so huge and decisive that I wonder whether I can still consider myself a supporter of Putin. [/QUOTE]

	16-09-2004 16:08									#93
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quote: Exactly. It is this kind of centralism that stirred so much nationalism in the Societ Republics, which effectively killed the USSR.

Nationalism didn't kill the USSR.

	16-09-2004 16:14									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Nationalism didn't kill the USSR.

It sure weakened Gorby's power enough in order for him to become the toy in Putshists and Yeltsin's games. The USSR had other problems, notably economic ones, and the opposition between conservatives and reformists, but nationalism is the reason why it dissolved like that.

Centralizing the power again is the best way to durably weaken the Russian State at its fringes, and to have the Russian territory dissolve again at the next crisis.

	16-09-2004 16:21									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Exactly. It is this kind of centralism that stirred so much nationalism in the Societ Republics, which effectively killed the USSR.

Better to say that the history of centralism made the republics so drunk with their newly gained freedoms that the process went out of control.

	16-09-2004 16:21									#96
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nah. Not really. Nationalism was a symptom. not the desease, which was the ailing economy, and the lack of personal freedoms.

	16-09-2004 16:26									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Exactly. It is this kind of centralism that stirred so much nationalism in the Societ Republics, which effectively killed the USSR.

USSR had been killed from outside, not inside.

	16-09-2004 16:30									#98
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Do the various ethnic groups identify with Russia? Do they think of themselves as Russians first and whatever ethnicicity second? Sure they fall under the control of the Russian Federation but do they think of themselves as Russians? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't get that impression.

That's what Russian should be working towards not central control. With Russia's history with leaders, they should be devising a system that has a less powers in one hands as they can possibly get. That's the only way you will get those people in the Caucuses from starting wars every decade or so..

	16-09-2004 16:33									#99
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond The more I think about it, the less I like it. It's a huge mistake. I am very disappointed. Serb, what about the national republics? Won't they deeply resent no longer being able to elect their own leader? Their leader being appointed by Moscow will eventually lead to more nationalism and separatism. WTF is Putin thinking about?! Rather than saving Russia, he will only destroy it.

So what about them? To become president/governor the candidate should be approved by local parliament first. If they do not like the candidate, they are free to decline his candidature. Local parliaments elected by locals, they are representatives of local population of those regions/republics. So where is the problem?
Not to mention I believe that head of state will be smart enough to chose his candidate from locals.

quote: Hell, this is actually my first ever serious disagreement with Putin's policies (after the anthem issue at least). But this issue is so huge and decisive that I wonder whether I can still consider myself a supporter of Putin.

As for me, I like him more and more. Perhaps I even can consider myself as his supporter.
Go, Putin, Go!!!

	16-09-2004 16:34									#100
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There are two different terms:
"Rossiyani" and "Russkiyi". I find it difficult to explain the difference...

	16-09-2004 16:39									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Do the various ethnic groups identify with Russia? Do they think of themselves as Russians first and whatever ethnicicity second? Sure they fall under the control of the Russian Federation but do they think of themselves as Russians? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't get that impression. That's what Russian should be working towards not central control. With Russia's history with leaders, they should be devising a system that has a less powers in one hands as they can possibly get. That's the only way you will get those people in the Caucuses from starting wars every decade or so..

They indetify themselvs as Rossiyane. You don't have such word in your monkey language. Russians are people of Russian nationality (which is basically a mix of hell knows how many nationalities). Rossiyane are citizens of Russia, regardless of their nationality. You can be of Indian or German natinality and still can be Rossiyanin if you are citizen and consider Russia as your Motherland.
I indetify myself as Rossiyanin, Russian (despite I have Russian, Ukranian, Beylorussian and unfortunately a small drop of Polish blood), then Siberian (because I live in Sibeira).

	16-09-2004 16:44									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel nah. Not really. Nationalism was a symptom. not the desease, which was the ailing economy, and the lack of personal freedoms.

And degrodation of elite I should add.

p.s. And of course lack of Gorby's balls.

	16-09-2004 16:45									#103
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Better to say that the history of centralism made the republics so drunk with their newly gained freedoms that the process went out of control.

If you mean the Baltic States, you're talking bollocks.

	16-09-2004 16:52									#104
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quote: If you mean the Baltic States, you're talking bollocks.

Since the Baltic states are about 5% of the population of the SU, no I don't think he talks about you.

quote: And degrodation of elite I should add.

And the fact there was an elite to begin with.

	16-09-2004 16:55									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Serb So what about them? To become president/governor the candidate should be approved by local parliament first. If they do not like the candidate, they are free to decline his candidature. Local parliaments elected by locals, they are representatives of local population of those regions/republics. So where is the problem? Not to mention I believe that head of state will be smart enough to chose his candidate from locals.

I understand that. But you have to recognize that it' s a huge difference for their national pride (loosely speaking) whether they elect their leader directly by themselves or just approve/disapprove Moscow's appointee. In relation to national republics, it's not even a matter of democracy, but rather a matter of their national autonomy. Putin is playing with fire here. I am really afraid for Russia.

	16-09-2004 16:58									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: And degrodation of elite I should add. And the fact there was an elite to begin with.

Yep. Gorby wet his pants everytime he heard SDI. Elite can't act like this.

	16-09-2004 17:02									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Serb They indetify themselvs as Rossiyane. You don't have such word in your monkey language.

Your impression of Paiktis is a poor one.

This is why Russia will forever be caught in the cycle of despotism. Cause no matter how horrendous it gets there the people will just close their eyes and pretent its not as bad as it seems. I thought Americans had grown complacent and sheepish, but the situation inside Russia scares the **** out of me. A great voter campaign here in the US should be commercials describing the Russian political landscape and that would scare all Americans into voting for sure. If your wondering why I'm hurteling insults its because that is all you ever seem to do.

	16-09-2004 17:05									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Saras If you mean the Baltic States, you're talking bollocks.

Well, my intention was just to try to say more accurately what Spiffor meant. But, of course, it is only one of the reasons the Soviet Union collapsed.

	16-09-2004 17:09									#109
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I understand that. But you have to recognize that it' s a huge difference for their national pride (loosely speaking) whether they elect their leader directly by themselves or just approve/disapprove Moscow's appointee. In relation to national republics, it's not even a matter of democracy, but rather a matter of their national autonomy. Putin is playing with fire here. I am really afraid for Russia.

Why the hell national republic should have more rights than ordinary region? Only becuase bulk of their population aren't Russians? It pretty stupid to call country Russian Federation if national minorities have more rights than Russians.
We need a territorial reform. National republics are delayed action bombs. Those bombs might explode one day. But if will disband national republics and make all states alike and equal, it will not be Russia anymore and it will immidiently triger some of those bombs for sure. Damn, we are in hopeless situation.

	16-09-2004 17:16									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Your impression of Paiktis is a poor one. This is why Russia will forever be caught in the cycle of despotism. Cause no matter how horrendous it gets there the people will just close their eyes and pretent its not as bad as it seems. I thought Americans had grown complacent and sheepish, but the situation inside Russia scares the **** out of me. A great voter campaign here in the US should be commercials describing the Russian political landscape and that would scare all Americans into voting for sure. If your wondering why I'm hurteling insults its because that is all you ever seem to do.

I'm sorry.
btw, I call my native language monkey language too. I thought it sounds fun. Sorry if it sounds so insulting for you.

	16-09-2004 17:28									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Serb We need a territorial reform. National republics are delayed action bombs. Those bombs might explode one day. But if will disband national republics and make all states alike and equal, it will not be Russia anymore and it will immidiently triger some of those bombs for sure. Damn, we are in hopeless situation.

Tough decisions have to be made. Neither Russia nor the US can keep things the way they are. Both of us are in the unfortunate position of depending on the status quo (pre 9-11 and pre school attack) You can reorganized yourselves and still be Russia. Any country that resist changes is doomed to fail. Doesn't mean you have to change everything. It's not hopeless, just hard.

	16-09-2004 17:30									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I'm sorry. btw, I call my native language monkey language too. I thought it sounds fun. Sorry if it sounds so insulting for you.

No worries. Just an eventful morning here at home. I overreacted

	16-09-2004 17:40									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Why the hell national republic should have more rights then ordinary region? Only becuase bulk of their population aren't Russians? It pretty stupid to call country Russian Federation if national minorities have more rights than Russians.

Republics should not have more rights than oblasts (at least on the paper; reality is always a little bit different, as we are well aware; but it's just c'est la vie). This is exactly why regional leaders should be elected as they are now. For republics, it's a matter of their national autonomy (a very serious matter!). But, because all subjects of the Federation are equal, oblast leaders should also be elected as they are now. Plain and simple. Note that this way of reasoning doesn't even appeal to democracy as such.

quote: We need a territorial reform. National republics are delayed action bombs. Those bombs might explode one day. But if will disband national republics and make all states alike and equal, it will not be Russia anymore and it will immidiently triger some of those bombs for sure. Damn, we are in hopeless situation.

Territorial reform is a separate issue. National republics is a delicate matter. But what Putin suggests will only make them more powerful bombs, but perhaps more delayed too.

	17-09-2004 02:48									#114
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quote: YELTSIN AND GORBACHEV SPEAK OUT AGAINST REFORMS Soviet Union’s last president Mikhail Gorbachev and Russia’s first president Boris Yeltsin expressed criticism regarding Vladimir Putin’s proposed reforms in Russian electoral system. Statements by Yeltsin and Gorbachev were made in exclusive interviews to Moskovskie Novosti (The Moscow News) weekly, and will be published in that newspaper’s Friday issue. MosNews, which is a partner publication of Moskovskie Novosti, posted full translation of both statements on our website on Thursday. Our common goal is to do everything possible to make sure that bills, which, in essence, mean a step back from democracy, don’t come into force as law. I hope that the politicians, voters, and the president himself keep the democratic freedoms that were so hard to obtain, — reads Mikhail Gorbachev’s statement. Soviet Union’s last president, who ruled the country from 1985 to 1992, is convinced that Russian authorities “must search for political solutions, negotiate with the middle-of-the-road militants, separating them from the unappeasable extremists”. His successor Boris Yeltsin, whose second presidential term ended on December 31, 1999, with a surprise announcement of his voluntary resignation (Vladimir Putin was named acting president three months before actually getting elected in March 2000), calls on the Kremlin to refrain from undermining the existing constitutional framework, despite the necessity of fighting terrorist threats. I firmly believe that the measures that the country’s leadership will undertake after Beslan will remain within the framework of democratic freedoms that have become Russia’s most valuable achievement over the past decade. We will not give up on the letter of the law, and most importantly, the spirit of the Constitution our country had voted for at the public referendum in 1993. If only because the stifling of freedom and the curtailing of democratic rights is a victory by the terrorists. Only a democratic country can successfully resist terrorism and count on standing shoulder to shoulder with all of the world’s civilized countries, — Yeltsin says in his statement. Boris Yeltsin’s statement is viewed as a surprise move by many observers in Moscow. Unlike Mikhail Gorbachev, who is still active on Russian political scene, Yeltsin chose to refrain from public comments about Vladimir Putin’s politics ever since his retirement. Recently Boris Berezovsky, an exiled tycoon, renowned for his criticisms of Kremlin and Putin, published an open letter to Russia’s first president, urging Yeltsin to speak up and reminding him of his responsibility for the establishment of Russian constitutional democracy. Yeltsin makes no mention of Berezovsky’s call in his statement, but some observers tend to link his decision to break silence with the exiled oligarch’s request.

	17-09-2004 03:46									#115
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Well, you know, with all of my ambivalence to the current moves, I hardly think that tweedli-dim, and tweedli-dumb can pass any judgement on Putin....

	17-09-2004 03:55									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Well, you know, with all of my ambivalence to the current moves, I hardly think that tweedli-dim, and tweedli-dumb can pass any judgement on Putin....

Do you disagree with what they say?

	17-09-2004 04:04									#117
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I am not sure. It's quite obvious that this is just a grab for more power by Putin ( what does it have to do with Terrorism, anyway? ), but this doesn't necessarily mean that these steps are wrong, or anti-democratic...