14-09-2004 14:24									#31
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The Nazis did care about human rights. The question is whom they considered human and whom not.

	14-09-2004 14:37									#32
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2nd nye

	14-09-2004 16:23									#33
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As far as the use of poison gas is concerned one of the main factors was that Hitler knew personally what it was like to be on the receiving end and assumed that if Germany used such weapons, the British and Americans would.

Even though Germany was the only country with organo-phosphate nerve gas Hitler would not consider first use as it was assumed the British also knew of it and no-one had an antidote or effective countermeasures.

	14-09-2004 17:23									#34
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There is also the fact that the average German, which was the most educated populous in the world at this time btw, could find something in common with his Western enemies as well as Western civilians. These were people that probobly reminded him of home, while the small villages of Russia and the like would be as alien as Iraq is to us. It is easy to detach yourself when you feel no link, and harder to do so when there is.

Also remember that for the German the West was not an ideological war. I am not trying to understate the racial overtones of the war in the East, but they were not the only or major concern of the average German soldier. They were deathly afraid of the Bolsheviks, partially from propoganda, partially because of what they saw in Russia, and partially from the social struggles of the 20's in Germany. The Jews were dehumanzied so it was an indifferent apathy that made their deaths incosequential. The Russians were evil barbarians, and that made their deaths mandatory. It is why both sides were fanatical from the very begginning of that war.

I don't think the West has yet to experiance a conflict of that dimension.

	14-09-2004 19:39									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos There is also the fact that the average German, which was the most educated populous in the world at this time btw...

I guess Ignorance is a bless at times


On topic:

while I have no idea on all the specific violations of the Geneva Convention on the Eastern Front, to my knowledge the use of Chemical Weapons was not one of them.

The 'endlosung' was an internal affair, and therefore not subject to the Geneva Convention.

Nevertheless, several violations of the Geneva Conventions occurred in the west in the occupied countries, like retaliotions agianst the civic populace for assaults against militairy or administartive targets.

The U-boat strikes at convoys was a violation of the Geneva Convention as well, as were the bombings of population centers.


The Nazi's only honoured the Conventions as they saw fit, and if they thought their opponents would be able to retaliate with equal or greater force, they took their chances. If they thought their opponent would not be able to strike back, they just didn't give a damn.

	14-09-2004 23:22									#36
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Subjective opinion:

Hitler was very disappointed when UK and France declared war to Germany after the invasion of Poland. He was constantly trying to achieve peace with the western countries (UK, France and later US) since the start of the war. Because of this, he made many micromanagering moves which proved to be futile later on (refusing to crush the isolated English army while they were still in France is a good example).

	14-09-2004 23:40									#37
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quote: The Nazi's only honoured the Conventions as they saw fit, and if they thought their opponents would be able to retaliate with equal or greater force, they took their chances. If they thought their opponent would not be able to strike back, they just didn't give a damn.

Sort of like the Allies...

I find the whole U-boat illegality thing a bit rich, and it is a very extreme stretch to apply it in the first place. You will note the same rules were not applied to the US/UK submarine campaign in the Pacific, which was of the same scale.

	14-09-2004 23:44									#38
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well, that is why Doenitz did not get a very harsh sentence, cause his lawyers brought the commander of the US sub campaign in the pacific to essentially say the US did essentially the same things.

	15-09-2004 00:39									#39
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Unristricted submarine warfare was prohibited by either the Geneva Convention or some other international Law, that much I'm sure of.

The fact that the US/UK violated that law/convention as well, doesn't make it less.

	15-09-2004 01:37									#40
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Subjective opinion: Hitler was very disappointed when UK and France declared war to Germany after the invasion of Poland. He was constantly trying to achieve peace with the western countries (UK, France and later US) since the start of the war. Because of this, he made many micromanagering moves which proved to be futile later on (refusing to crush the isolated English army while they were still in France is a good example).

he actually declared war on the US. and don't talk about the Japan alliance. did they wage war against the USSR?

	15-09-2004 04:24									#41
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Yes. The Soviets invaded Manchuria in 1945 to get some territory in the East before the Americans over-ran Japan. Previously, the Japanese made great efforts to keep the border with the Soviets peaceful.

	15-09-2004 05:15									#42
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Does anyone know whether the USSR signed the Geneva conventions? If not, they were not under their protection.

I have actually read some of Hitler's communiques on this topic. He was a very conscious of his legal obligations under the various conventions and was appalled when the Brits violated them repeatedly.

	15-09-2004 05:19									#43
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I'm pretty sure the Soviets didn't sign the Convention. They got pretty isolated after 1917.

	15-09-2004 06:37									#44
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germanos,

quote: Unristricted submarine warfare was prohibited by either the Geneva Convention or some other international Law, that much I'm sure of. The fact that the US/UK violated that law/convention as well, doesn't make it less.

True, a violation is a violation. The problem comes in when you are prosecuting someone else for doing the same thing you are doing. I mean, come on - if the US could get away with it, why shouldn't the Germans?

Quite frankly, I think that Curtis LeMay and various others in the Army Air Corps were just as guilty of war crimes as many Nazis were, with the campaigns of firebombing and carpet bombing civilians.

	15-09-2004 06:38									#45
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AS,

quote: Yes. The Soviets invaded Manchuria in 1945 to get some territory in the East before the Americans over-ran Japan. Previously, the Japanese made great efforts to keep the border with the Soviets peaceful.

Yeah, but don't tell Serb that. He'll tell you that the US couldn't have won without the Soviet invasion of Manchuria

Speaking of Serb, I'm surprised he hasn't made an appearance here yet. I thought my comment about Soviet treatment of German civilians would draw him out.

	15-09-2004 07:18									#46
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Remember that Hitler suffered gas poisoning in WW1. He may have been deathly afraid of gas warfare. It also should be pointed out that his CO was Jewish. I wonder if some of his venom against Jews might have been a by product of resentment of his commander.

The Soviets didn't get much territory from Japan because of their part in the war against Japan. They got part of a desolate island and some territory around Vladivostock. However they were able to link up with Mao's army when they invaded northern China and they donated a huge stash of military equipment to the PRA.

	15-09-2004 07:23									#47
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The Soviets wanted political influence more than land in Manchuria/Korea - absolutely, DS.

	15-09-2004 07:29									#48
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Well, putting mao in power definitely increased their influence - for awhile.

	15-09-2004 07:31									#49
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Yeah, but I was also thinking about Korea, and of course they WANTED an occupation zone in Japan, as well as blue water ports for their navy.

	15-09-2004 08:07									#50
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I guess Ignorance is a bless at times

Well, as WW2 progressed, American troops prefered occupation duty in Germany by far, and found the Germans to be remarkably similiar to them in mannerisms. They were industrious in taking the intiative to rebuild their cities and behaving well.

As opposed to THE FRENCH(tm) who seemed to only agree that the allies needed to give them more money.

	15-09-2004 09:37									#51
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I think you guys are reading a lot of propaganda into what was very simple. Hitler abided by his legal obligations under the Geneva conventions. Whenever he strayed from them, it was because the allies violated one of their obligations first.

	15-09-2004 09:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think you guys are reading a lot of propaganda into what was very simple. Hitler abided by his legal obligations under the Geneva conventions. Whenever he strayed from them, it was because the allies violated one of their obligations first.

So fencing in thousands and thousands of Russian POWs with barbed wire and letting them starve to death on the bear earth is in keeping with the Geneva Convention? That's interesting...

	15-09-2004 09:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Honest question. How did your family find out the circumstances of his end?

The rest of the crew surivived, rescued by the Nazis, ironically enough.

	15-09-2004 09:59									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko So fencing in thousands and thousands of Russian POWs with barbed wire and letting them starve to death on the bear earth is in keeping with the Geneva Convention? That's interesting...

The Soviets were not signatories to the Geneva Conventions. As such, Hitler had no legal obligations to them.

	15-09-2004 10:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Hitler abided by his legal obligations under the Geneva conventions. Whenever he strayed from them, it was because the allies violated one of their obligations first.

Hitler engaged in terror bombing in Bilbao and Warsaw. He was the first to violate when he thought he could get away with it.

DF, according to the Japanese, it was the Soviet declaration of war that brought about the surrender. That was when they realized that continued resistence was futile. They were prepared to be bombed. I mean, really, was dropping an atomic bomb once a month really that big a threat, when we could fire bomb them daily?

	15-09-2004 10:57									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Soviets were not signatories to the Geneva Conventions. As such, Hitler had no legal obligations to them.

The Geneva Conventions applied to the countries that signed it.

The agreement did not say you can't do this to a signatory country, but feel free to commit atrocities against countries that have not signed it.

Whether Russia signed it or not is not relevant.

	15-09-2004 10:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by self biased harr harr harr.

your momma

	15-09-2004 11:12									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Well, putting mao in power definitely increased their influence - for awhile.

The Soviets did not put Mao into power.

In fact, the Soviets supported Chiang and the KMT from about 1937 until the end of the Chinese Civil War. Stalin perceived Mao as being a dangerous renegade.

When the Soviets invaded Manchuria, they initially allowed the CCP to step in as a temporary civilian government, mainly because the KMT was in no position to move in. But the Soviets delayed their withdrawal during 1946 so that the KMT could move troops to the north.

Chiang wanted his own troops in Manchuria and refused to allow other non-communist troops into the area. With the help of the US, Chiang's troops are airlifted and shipped to Manchuria where they eventually take control of the major cities. But its too late, the CCP is established itself in the countryside.

More importantly, local militias joined the CCP bring their equipment with them. The CCP was also able to take control some, but not all of the war supplies left by the Japanese.

In short, the idea that the Soviets gave the PLA equipment on a silver platter is false.

	15-09-2004 11:17									#59
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Cool history!

I've always wondered about how the Chinese/US/Soviet angle went in Manchuria.

In our history books it usually gets 1 sentence of mention, but usually it's never mentioned at all.

	15-09-2004 11:21									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Yes. The Soviets invaded Manchuria in 1945 to get some territory in the East before the Americans over-ran Japan. Previously, the Japanese made great efforts to keep the border with the Soviets peaceful.

It was in the best interest for both the USSR and Japan to keep their border quiet, for various reasons.

The Yalta conference discussed the course to take now that Nazi-Germany was on it's knees. One of the agreements made was that three months after V-E day, the Soviet union would attack Japan. And so they did.