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notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 07:38
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Note the Iraqis actually fired a few times. Bit of a difference, yes?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 08:17 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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I am not aware that they ever got the chance to fire.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 08:51
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We could go digging, but I recall several incidents that made the news of 'Yanks/Brits fired on installations after Iraqi forces fired on aircraft patrolling the no-fly zone(s).'

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 08:52
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And it didn't happen every week. Not that I saw reported. I would like to see something on weekly bombings though.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
time: 23:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


When Iraqi radar locked on Coalition planes flying over their territory.

Note, we do not bomb China or North Korea or other countries that lock onto our planes, even when we aren't flying over their territory.


I wasn't aware that we were at war with China, or enforcing a no-fly zone with North Korea.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 18-09-2004 09:01 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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We weren't at war with Iraq either.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 09:07
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Actually, by your rules I think you were. Then there was a ceasefire. Not a peace, a ceasefire.

Congress authorised GW1, yes? Congress authorised continued vigilance over Iraq, yes?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 09:24 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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We never declared war. Have haven't declared war since WWII.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 09:32
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Well yes. The big flowery letters are saved for European countries that you decide need a kicking. I think they are impressed by them, or something.

Declaring war and a state of war are not necessarily the same though. Are they?

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 09:34
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btw, wasn't FDR's language a 'State or War'. And the Germans saved Congress the trouble. Did they actually 'Declare War' on Italy?

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 15:22 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


Have you started polishing your gloating shoes yet?


I get no pleasure from it. So much suffering on all sides.

Maybe every generation needs a war to remind them just how stupid and wasteful and futile war is.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 17:55
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Speaking of the insurgency growing, I heard that the insurgents are being financed with money from the "oil for food program." Doesn't that mean that France is financing the insurgency?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
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Oct 2001
time: 14:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 18:04
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quote:
I seem to recall Hagel as being one of the few Republicans (and frankly one of the few Senators) who occasionally utters an original thought.


Guess where he's from...

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
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Oct 2001
time: 14:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 18:05
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On a serious note, I'd like to see what Oerdin thinks about this...

quote:
Longtime CQ reader Bob Stakel forwards me a message from his neice's husband, a Major in the Marine Corps who cannot understand why the American media keeps painting such a gloomy picture of their work. I've copied it, unedited, for CQ readers:


A thought from Iraq – “Doom & Gloom about Iraq’s future….I don’t see it from where I’m sitting.â€


[For those of you who haven’t gotten my “Thoughts†before, I’m a Major in the USMC on the Multi-National Corps staff in Baghdad. The analysts and pundits who don’t see what I see on a daily basis, in my opinion, have very little credibility to talk about the situation – especially if they have yet to set foot in Iraq. Everything Americans believe about Iraq is simply perception filtered through one’s latent prejudices until you are face-to-face with reality. If you haven’t seen, or don’t remember, the John Wayne movie, The Green Berets, you should watch it this weekend. Pay special attention to the character of the reporter, Mr. Beckwith. His experience is directly related to the situation here. You’ll have a different perspective on Iraq after the movie is over.]


------------------------------------------------------------------------


The US media is abuzz today with the news of an intelligence report that is very negative about the prospects for Iraq’s future. CNN’s website says, “[The] National Intelligence Estimate was sent to the White House in July with a classified warning predicting the best case for Iraq was ‘tenuous stability’ and the worst case was civil war.†That report, along with the car bombings and kidnappings in Baghdad in the past couple days are being portrayed in the media as more proof of absolute chaos and the intransigence of the insurgency.


From where I sit, at the Operational Headquarters in Baghdad, that just isn’t the case. Let’s lay out some background, first about the “National Intelligence Estimate.†The most glaring issue with its relevance is the fact that it was delivered to the White House in July. That means that the information that was used to derive the intelligence was gathered in the Spring – in the immediate aftermath of the April battle for Fallujah, and other events. The report doesn’t cover what has happened in July or August, let alone September.


The naysayers will point to the recent battles in Najaf and draw parallels between that and what happened in Fallujah in April. They aren’t even close. The bad guys did us a HUGE favor by gathering together in one place and trying to make a stand. It allowed us to focus on them and defeat them. Make no mistake, Al Sadr’s troops were thoroughly smashed. The estimated enemy killed in action is huge. Before the battles, the residents of the city were afraid to walk the streets. Al Sadr’s enforcers would seize people and bring them to his Islamic court where sentence was passed for religious or other violations. Long before the battles people were looking for their lost loved ones who had been taken to “court†and never seen again. Now Najafians can and do walk their streets in safety. Commerce has returned and the city is being rebuilt. Iraqi security forces and US troops are welcomed and smiled upon. That city was liberated again. It was not like Fallujah – the bad guys lost and are in hiding or dead.


You may not have even heard about the city of Samarra. Two weeks ago, that Sunni Triangle city was a “No-go†area for US troops. But guess what? The locals got sick of living in fear from the insurgents and foreign fighters that were there and let them know they weren’t welcome. They stopped hosting them in their houses and the mayor of the town brokered a deal with the US commander to return Iraqi government sovereignty to the city without a fight. The people saw what was on the horizon and decided they didn’t want their city looking like Fallujah in April or Najaf in August.


Boom, boom, just like that two major “hot spots†cool down in rapid succession. Does that mean that those towns are completely pacified? No. What it does mean is that we are learning how to do this the right way. The US commander in Samarra saw an opportunity and took it – probably the biggest victory of his military career and nary a shot was fired in anger. Things will still happen in those cities, and you can be sure that the bad guys really want to take them back. Those achievements, more than anything else in my opinion, account for the surge in violence in recent days – especially the violence directed at Iraqis by the insurgents. Both in Najaf and Samarra ordinary people stepped out and took sides with the Iraqi government against the insurgents, and the bad guys are hopping mad. They are trying to instill fear once again. The worst thing we could do now is pull back and let that scum back into people’s homes and lives.


So, you may hear analysts and prognosticators on CNN, ABC and the like in the next few days talking about how bleak the situation is here in Iraq, but from where I sit, it’s looking significantly better now than when I got here. The momentum is moving in our favor, and all Americans need to know that, so please, please, pass this on to those who care and will pass it on to others. It is very demoralizing for us here in uniform to read & hear such negativity in our press. It is fodder for our enemies to use against us and against the vast majority of Iraqis who want their new government to succeed. It causes the American public to start thinking about the acceptability of “cutting our losses†and pulling out, which would be devastating for Iraq for generations to come, and Muslim militants would claim a huge victory, causing us to have to continue to fight them elsewhere (remember, in war “Away†games are always preferable to “Home†games). Reports like that also cause Iraqis begin to fear that we will pull out before we finish the job, and thus less willing to openly support their interim government and US/Coalition activities. We are realizing significant progress here – not propaganda progress, but real strides are being made. It’s terrible to see our national morale, and support for what we’re doing here, jeopardized by sensationalized stories hyped by media giants whose #1 priority is advertising income followed closely by their political agenda; getting the story straight falls much further down on their priority scale, as Dan Rather and CBS News have so aptly demonstrated in the last week.


http://www.captainsquartersblog.com...ives/002544.php

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 18:12
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If Iraq is indeed descending into chaos, I predict that the Iraqis will elect leaders who will do what is necessary to decisively defeat the insurgency. Right now, the war, IMHO, is being waged in a somewhat effete manner, sensitively, as Kerry said he would do when or if he is elected.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 18:39 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Speaking of the insurgency growing, I heard that the insurgents are being financed with money from the "oil for food program." Doesn't that mean that France is financing the insurgency?


Well as a matter of fact The United States was the biggest purchaser of Iraqi oil until a few months before the war.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 18:41
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Drake, good post.

I would also like to point out that the inaccurate reporting is encouraging the opposition, demoralizing our allies and possibly our troops as well. They applaud every insurgent "success," gravely note every American death, and ignore any signs of progress and stability. Clearly this is intentional, just as it was during Vietnam. The leaders of the antiwar movement then, as they do now, primarily seek to defeat America.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Well as a matter of fact The United States was the biggest purchaser of Iraqi oil until a few months before the war.


But the money went into French banks, and from there, it appears, it is going into the pockets of the insurgents, probably what the full knowledge of that great pro American UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 19:10 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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It's called DENIAL Ned.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
It's called DENIAL Ned.


Why of course, Horse's A.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 19:36 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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You're right Ned, what would I know about these things?

I'm just a rank amateur compared to you.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
You're right Ned, what would I know about these things?

I'm just a rank amateur compared to you.


No, you just have a blind spot regarding history.

I actually experienced the chaos surrounding the Vietnam War and can see that the Vietnam antiwar types have grown to power in the media and have caused it to have a distinct antiwar bias when it comes to Iraq.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 19:58 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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right - you have a history degree do you Ned?

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
right - you have a history degree do you Ned?


As I said, I was there.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 22:21 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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So Ned, did these anti-American, anti-war drugged out hippies infiltrate the Penatgon and write that reoprt mentioned in the OP?

Oh, and DOWN WITH AMERICA!

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
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Mar 2000
time: 23:23
  Old Post 18-09-2004 23:05
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The Oil-For-Food travesty is one of my "pet projects".

...


But I ain't touching this.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-09-2004 00:55
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quote:
Well as a matter of fact The United States was the biggest purchaser of Iraqi oil until a few months before the war.


And Saddam was happy to sell it. Could've saved a bunch of money by just buying it from him instead of taking over the country.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
  Old Post 19-09-2004 04:23
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
So Ned, did these anti-American, anti-war drugged out hippies infiltrate the Penatgon and write that reoprt mentioned in the OP?

Oh, and DOWN WITH AMERICA!


See. You prove my point.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:23
  Old Post 19-09-2004 05:41 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned


As I said, I was there.


Lol, that doesn't give you any special insights to Iraq.

I think Iraq is worse than Vietnam - South Vietnam had a government, US troops could move around the country freely. In Iraq, US forces can't even leave their bases. That's pretty bad.

The US army reminds me of the lost legions of Rome that went to that region.

Bush, the modern Crassus, whom the Parthians killed in Iraq by pouring molten gold down his throat to mock is greed.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:23
  Old Post 19-09-2004 07:00 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
See. You prove my point.


No, I made fun of you.

 
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