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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:23
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quote:
And is something that you don't need to teach somebody.
Morals should not be taught, people who need instructions on how to build arguments (especially from you) should not be in university in the first place...
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Bull, the line between critical reasoning and philosophy itself is a blurred one. A philosophy of logic, which many (often unwittingly) are, has a certain logical structure. I've had education in logic and critical thinking (the former as my own extracurricular study, the latter as part of a formal course) so I suppose I can vouch for its necessity. Unless, of course, you advocate that all philosophers should learn to critically reason by themselves with no teaching?
Of course, this still leaves the question, does a philosopher belong in a formalised educational environment, or merely lovers of philosophy? That question remains open.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Bull, the line between critical reasoning and philosophy itself is a blurred one. A philosophy of logic, which many (often unwittingly) are, has a certain logical structure. I've had education in logic and critical thinking (the former as my own extracurricular study, the latter as part of a formal course) so I suppose I can vouch for its necessity. |
I've taken Philosophy of Logic I and II as well.
And I can say, if you learned anything in these types of courses, you do not belong in university.
What they teach are things that are innate to anyone with a shred of intellect. It sincerely bothered me that no one really got A's except for the science majors in the course. 
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Unless, of course, you advocate that all philosophers should learn to critically reason by themselves with no teaching? |
Why should someone have to be taught how to reason? Where is the original thought when somebody instructs you on ridiculous constructs you "must" use?
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Of course, this still leaves the question, does a philosopher belong in a formalised educational environment, or merely lovers of philosophy? That question remains open. |
The latter. Philosophy, save for the history of it, is not something that should be taught.
Is it any wonder why philosphers have become markedly less useful in the modern era? They're taught how to think and what to think, that sure as hell isn't what philosophy should be.
Cheers to original thoughts. 
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
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My political views are my own, and are not a "joke"... |
Of course they are a joke. You have crude right-wing views that take no cognizance of basic economics. You seem to believe that everything you think has no value, automatically has no value for anyone, and you would seek to gut things like universities while having no understanding of the function they perform in our society.
It would be boring to go over all this again. But I learned some time ago that you aren't interested in argument, or the truth, but in compensating for your personal inadequacies.
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For the record, a communist should not ever call somebody else's political views "a joke"... |
Sure they can, if you are a communist like me, who doesn't believe in immediate and violent revolution, but rather using the state to correct for market failures until such time that a change is needed (which won't be for some time). None of the short-term political goals I agree with would be out of place at a Liberal Party conference. But if you want to call them communists, then be my guest. I don't see any reason not to let you make a fool of yourself.
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I felt like I was in elementary school, when someone writes on the board... |
You did go to the University of Calgary.... 
I was bored in Introduction to Logic. I found it rather easy. But since it isn't taught at high school, you have to start somewhere.
I don't think formal logic is useful for most people. They would be better off taking a practical logic course. I've taught plenty of CS students in the latter and they, like everyone else, were in sore need of instruction.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Of course they are a joke. You have crude right-wing views that take no cognizance of basic economics. |
Erm...yes, it does.
Honestly, Aggie, you're a frickin' commie. No communist economy is successful. Even China has a fairly right-wing economy.
You're hurting your position more than helping it...
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You seem to believe that everything you think has no value, automatically has no value for anyone |
Not true. Things that have no value for anyone have no value for anyone. 
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, and you would seek to gut things like universities while having no understanding of the function they perform in our society. |
It's my belief that morals should not be taught, people should not be taught how to think. Philosophy, in that respect, is a waste of taxpayers money. It does nothing but provide us with an ample supply of philosophy professors and McDonalds workers who can talk to you about Plato.
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You did go to the University of Calgary....
I was bored in Introduction to Logic. I found it rather easy. But since it isn't taught at high school, you have to start somewhere. |
Ask people anywhere. It's the same for all my friends at your prestigious University of Toronto. Most of my coworkers come from there. I asked if any of them had Lee Churchman, and they said no.
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I don't think formal logic is useful for most people. They would be better off taking a practical logic course. I've taught plenty of CS students in the latter and they, like everyone else, were in sore need of instruction. |
Maybe the University of Toronto students are just pretty dense, then. Or perhaps it's your instruction that's confusing them (most likely).
Formal logic is useful to no one as it's taught in philosophy. It's a bastardized and simplified form of logic used in Computer Science and Mathematics, that the philosophy geeks still find difficult.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:23
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I just noticed this:
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azazel, they are usually people who are bad in math |
I am bad at math. Calc, algebra, DE, PDE, I suck at it all, well, I don't suck, but I do ok, at the very best. At least compared to maths majors and stuff. I am no Beautiful Mind. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I have my own strengths. This doesn't mean that math isn't good for a person, or for humanity. Math should be taught to more people, in higher intesnsity. If I studied more math at school, I would be better at it, and so would everyone else. Math allows people to tackle more professional problems, with greater ease. Philosophy is similar in the realm of personal relations, as long as it doesn't force ideology. It should give tools, and we all would be better people if it did.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
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Honestly, Aggie, you're a frickin' commie. No communist economy is successful. Even China has a fairly right-wing economy. |
And if you bothered reading what I had written, you would know that this is a poor argument. I happen to think that China is doing the right thing. Unlike many communists, I recognize that markets have a useful role to play in providing goods which people need. However, they are notoriously bad at providing other goods that people need.
As I said, this would not be out of place at a Liberal Party conference. What makes me a communist is not any political claim, but economic claims about the future viability of free markets due to technological advancement. If you want to argue against that, then fine - but don't accuse me of advocating wholesale economic and political change tomorrow, because that's not what I believe.
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Formal logic is useful to no one as it's taught in philosophy. |
Yes it is. It is a useful device for testing complicated arguments. If you are interested in the Philosophy of Language, it is indispensable.
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Ask people anywhere. It's the same for all my friends at your prestigious University of Toronto. Most of my coworkers come from there. I asked if any of them had Lee Churchman, and they said no. |
It's unlikely they would have had me, unless they did intro or a specialist ancient phil course. There are about 200 people involved in teaching philosophy at U of T, so that is no surprise.
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It's my belief that morals should not be taught, people should not be taught how to think. |
But science teaches people how to think... in fact it also teaches them what to think.
In philosophy, we don't teach people what to think - especially in ethics. Rather, we teach people how to make better arguments for the positions they already hold. If they decide to change their minds, that's their business, not mine.
And philosophy is certainly not a waste of taxpayers money. Lots of people want to study it - the same way people want to study history or classics or plenty of other subjects that are not traditionally regarded as marketable.
But that's not the point of universities. The whole point of taxpayer funding of universities is that they produce things that the market won't provide, but which people want.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
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My point was his job is a music critic, and his taste is not shared by most people. |
Well, taste in classical music is not shared by most people, but that doesn't stop classical music critics from producing worthy criticism. There are many critics who write for minority audiences. Jesus, I don't even know what Jamaican dancehall music is (but to Bob Marley) but I don't see why someone shouldn't write about it, if other people want to read it.
Anyway, as a critic you don't even have to like the same stuff as your audience. Many people enjoy reading critics they hate, just so they can get angry.
Of course, being a highly trained philosopher, I couldn't really see your point, in this case because it was so daft.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:23
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What people often are mixing up, the philosophy defendors, is that you're taking this subject and thinking philosophy is everything and can be applied to anything, and in fact everything is kind of philosophy, when in fact that's just a disillusioned babbling caused by too much acid.
What about common sense? Is there no place for common sense if there was no philosophers? That's like saying if Mr X didn't invent Y, no one else could have done it, or that there wouldn't be any equivalent inventions to that. In fact, we don't know, there might be even better things for us at hand right now, if some inventions were done by other people, because new inventions were born out of the first invention, so if the first invention would be different but kind of working the same problem, we might have WAY better solutions, protocols and components to any problem we might have now and in the future.
So, you say philosophy opened up this and that. No it didn't do that, it might have affected it, it might have played a small or a big role in different things, however we can't just draw blatant conclusions and get ourselves a circle conclusements like this. Philosophers would agree with me.
It's just like the skeptic motto 'nothing is for certain', and a philosopher sticks his head out in the open from the cave like Plato suggests, happy in delighted, with open mind and shouts to the skeptic 'NOooo! You MOngerer! If you say that, then your first sentence is not certain either!', totally missing the point of the skeptics point, just to make himself have little mental masturbation and elevate himself to the elite, because he has a small penis in reality. I guess the old 'well what is big anyway, is it a factual thing?' didn't work out when someone told him 'YES it is a fact'.
What philosophers claim to their own field is the critical thinking of anything, be it authority or what ever. How come this is philosohpy 100%? Why can't this be also common sense, and built into people? You act as if philosophy is its own entity, and some person accidentally was able to grab it and then spread it and BEHOLD THE WORLD WAS FREEEE!!! It didn't go down like that. I'm sorry. Philosophers = unemployed.
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