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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
They are? |
Yes. At least in the UK, maths graduates have some of the most positions open to them, and earn more than graduates of most other degrees.
quote:
Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
Quote by me. Maths at high-school level will get you into useful subjects like computer science and philosophy, maths at university just leads to scientists making better toasters. |
Surely that's civil engineering?
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Originally posted by Agathon
Mathematics is something that a few people need to do for some of the time. Critical thinking and moral argument is something that everyone does, most of the time. |
And maths doesn't teach logic? In the UK, most philosophy students have to take formal logic courses. Most mathematicians take formal logic courses. At Oxford, it's actually the same course, run by both faculties, for both sets of students. The rest of the time, mathematicians learn the actual maths, rather than the style of thinking, and the philsophers read and debate texts.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
And I can say, if you learned anything in these types of courses, you do not belong in university. |
What about someone who's a wizz at a science, but can't do any critical thinking type thing. Do they not belong there. They've pigeonholed themselves, but they may just be great at that one thing, and thus belong there.
quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
I think the terrorists know they shouldn't kill infidels. They just do not admit it. |
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
KH is into physics, not computer science.
Something used very regularly (indeed, to the point of you-should-know-this-like-arithmetic), is an example by which you clearly didn't understand -- the example that started this very thread. 
You also need to be able to do most types of proof in your sleep -- mostly induction and reductio ad absurdum. You need to know how to do most types of calculus rather trivially (integration specifically), advanced set theory, linear algebra (working with matricies: eigenvalues, eigenvectors, computing normals, etc), harmonic series, LOTS of graph theory (reductions, cliques, etc), ... it's ridiculous to go on.
Computer Science is a form of applied mathematics. It's simply absurd to think you can do it with only high school math... |
Asher is right.
There is a continuum between Cs and Mathematics.
CS is like very applied math.
Theoretical CS IS math.
The founders of CS were actually mathematicians (von Neumann and Turing for example).
almost all of math is regurlarly used by some people in theoretical CS.
Im talking about the people proving that new algorithms are faster etc....
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Kuci I dont thing that anybody would argue that math is not useful for anybody.
Most of science is based on math.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:23
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quote:
Why should it surprise anyone that arts students succeed in the art of bullshit?
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Maybe it's because Ethics requires you to think of something besides numbers and figures for once?
quote:
They'll go on to be future liars and criminals, running our governments and deceiving the public. The scientists among us will go out and cure cancer and prolong the human lifespan and increase quality of life.
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Right, and I suppose the scientists who are honest will get the most government pay.
Scientists are not more honest then lawyers, they are just better at covering things up, Mendel's thumb and all.
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I do -- tell society what their money has done. You've used your philosophy courses and your degrees, to do manual labour?
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Right. Well, that's only what I have been paid to do. My contribution to society is on a far deeper level than mere monetary compensation.
Heck, if you'll pay me to write full-time then that solves everything. 
quote:
Society has invested tens of thousands of dollars on you and your education, and you squandered it with a degree and courseload that can get you a construction job.
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Society has invested nothing. I paid for half of it myself, and all of my tuition portion of the degree. The rest of my costs, such as housing, my parent's covered.
So please, tell me what I have cost society through my education.
Finally, there's nothing wrong with manual labour. It's a valuable contribution to society. Everybody wants a nice place to live, and how can you have that without construction workers?
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Fve Crathva
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Actually, it does Philosophers some good to take a few writing courses, to make their ideas more understandeable.
Of course, some 'writing' courses teach jargon, but that's another matter. |
That's why it needs to be technical writing. No jargon, no thesauruses, no compacting ideas into subjective packages. Ideas are all well and good, but they're damned useless if only a few nerds can understand them (that is, of course, only if they're supposed to be relevant to normal people).
SP
Last edited by Fve Crathva on 20-09-2004 at 05:56
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Maybe it's because Ethics requires you to think of something besides numbers and figures for once? |
Obviously, you have no concept of what goes on in university programs. If all we did was numbercrunching, we'd have computers for that.
Somebody has to solve the problems. Somebody has to think. And I'm talking real thinking here, not the "thinking" you get with ethics courses. Where we do not argue if it's ethical to save a burning baby against its mothers wishes, but try to figure out how to write the most efficient algorithms to, say, fold proteins...
quote:
Right, and I suppose the scientists who are honest will get the most government pay.
Scientists are not more honest then lawyers, they are just better at covering things up, Mendel's thumb and all. |
Scientists, in general, don't have to lie to make a living. Most lawyers do this without thinking. Politicians do it, as well (funny how many lawyers become politicians).
It's generally impossible to lie in science, or if you do you're caught and severely punished (see the Bell Labs incident last year).
quote:
Society has invested nothing. I paid for half of it myself, and all of my tuition portion of the degree. The rest of my costs, such as housing, my parent's covered.
So please, tell me what I have cost society through my education. |
You're seriously unaware that your education is heavily subsidized by the Canadian government?
You pay a minority of the cost it takes to educate you. The rest comes from society in the form of taxpayers.
quote:
Finally, there's nothing wrong with manual labour. It's a valuable contribution to society. Everybody wants a nice place to live, and how can you have that without construction workers? |
There's nothing wrong with it, of course. I do take issue with lots of public funds being used to teach useless courses that do not benefit society in return. Such as you taking a whole degree in something trivial (was it history?), and then end up doing something that you don't even need a high school diploma to do.
Society invested tens of thousands of dollars into you to educate you, and what they got in return was someone doing manual labour with virtually no educational requirements.
You're uber-right-wing, don't you see the wastefulness of your behavior?
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
So what do we do with all the science majors who work outside their field? I could fill a warehouse with the BScs who work in warehouses. We could fill a city if we include those driving buses, working in mines and on the rigs, stocking shelves in grocery stores, and yes, working in construction. |
Obviously they went to the University of Alberta.
They, too, have obviously not done very well with society's investment if they don't use it.
The problem is, most science grads do find relevant jobs. The same is not true for philosophy majors, or even history majors (though I do think history is useful in a university, I just question why people choose to major in it if not to become a prof themselves).
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
It's true that the "pure" sciences have more trouble with jobs, like chem and physics.
It's usually up to the applied sciences to find jobs.
That said, it's the "pure" scientists doing research that makes everyone's life better. I honestly can't say the same thing about philosophers today at universities, though they'll proclaim otherwise I'm sure...
After all, we need their guidance on how to form our morals and ethics. We need someone of their stature and intellect to tell us what we should believe is ethical.  |
Actually, you might not, but society in general does. Professionals are taught about ethics and how it effects issues related to their field. Medical ethics, legal ethics, even engineering has some component of professional ethics (I am pretty sure). The people who teach students about ethics for their field will be involved with philosophy departments, ususally.
When a new issue arises, say reproductive rights and modern technology, many of the people involved in examining the issues and raising questions will be faculty of philosophy departments.
I wouldn't say that any given member of any philosophy department is incredibly useful on any given day, but it's good to have a few of them around from time to time, even if there were no students to teach (which there are).
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, you might not, but society in general does. Professionals are taught about ethics and how it effects issues related to their field. Medical ethics, legal ethics, even engineering has some compontnet of professional ethics (I am pretty sure). The people who teach students about ethics for their field will be involved with philosophy departments, ususally.
When a new issue arises, say reproductive rights and modern technology, many of the people involved in examining the issues and raising questions will be faculty of philosophy departments.
I wouldn't say that any given member of any philosophy department is incredibly useful on any given day, but it's good to have a few of them around from time to time, even if there were no students to teach (which there are). |
What gives Philosophy majors the right to dictate ethics for the rest of society?
Because they've "studied" ethics?
It's patently ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
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19-09-2004 11:28
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