19-09-2004 02:14									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You can't use just high-school math in computer science, you know.

Depends on what levels you go to in high school

	19-09-2004 02:15									#62
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also depends on what level computer science you do

cold blooded...

	19-09-2004 02:15									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The only good thing about the philosophy courses I've taken was the humour value of the philosophy majors struggling with boolean logic. And the kid (complete with emo glasses) who tried to argue against De Morgan's law. I felt like I was in elementary school, when someone writes on the board... "Contradiction: P and NOT P is a contradiction"

Hell, that's not even philosophy. You should learn that stuff in the first week of a geometry course.

	19-09-2004 02:21									#64
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You don't need to be instructed in philosophy to be a "philosopher". You don't have to have a job as a "philosopher" to actually be one. Anyone with a shred of intelligence can do philosophy with no training. The only useful things are history of philosophy courses, and even those you can self-teach just by reading books.

	19-09-2004 02:23									#65
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You can self teach anything. I bombed your argument. No, wait.. what was your argument?

	19-09-2004 02:24									#66
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quote: You can self teach anything.

But it's much simpler when being taught pretty much amounts to just reading books. In that case, there's no point to having an instructor.

	19-09-2004 02:29									#67
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look son, I need to go to the bed and sleep some, so, just in case you try to be cool cat when I can't reply and bomb your arguments and utterly destroy your weak attempts, you're 16. That's right I said it you're 16 and your sig is way too long to prove otherwise. So, that means you're always wrong if you're up against adults.

Oh, and in the case of someone older than me trying to destroy this argument? Well, it doesn't work like that. The magical age is 20. 19 is kind of.. someting ish, but you have to be 20 or more, and there's no way around it. Sorry buddy. See you in few years .

	19-09-2004 02:31									#68
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Agathon, you shouldn't be the one to talk - surely according to your platonic essentialist principles there's only one right thing to think anyway? Plato was just like the scientists, he never got the notion of different approaches disclosing different aspects of the world.

(KH, tell me the most complicated maths used regularly in computer science and I'll tell you if I did it in high school. Not that it really matters, apparently my counterglow leg-pull has spilt over into a Really Big Humourless Apolyton Debate™, which means it's no longer fun. Thanks Asher. )

	19-09-2004 02:33									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: You can self teach anything. But it's much simpler when being taught pretty much amounts to just reading books. In that case, there's no point to having an instructor.

I see you haven't tried self-teaching Derrida.

	19-09-2004 02:33									#70
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Right now I'm on Hegel.

	19-09-2004 02:34									#71
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quote: Plato was just like the scientists, he never got the notion of different approaches disclosing different aspects of the world.

Oh ****, how new age is that?

	19-09-2004 02:34									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Agathon, you shouldn't be the one to talk - surely according to your platonic essentialist principles there's only one right thing to think anyway? Plato was just like the scientists, he never got the notion of different approaches disclosing different aspects of the world.

Don't insult scientists by comparing them to Plato.

	19-09-2004 02:35									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Plato was just like the scientists, he never got the notion of different approaches disclosing different aspects of the world. Oh ****, how new age is that?

Well, according to Heidegger's critics, very. Now hush and let me troll Aggie in peace.

	19-09-2004 03:21									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed (KH, tell me the most complicated maths used regularly in computer science and I'll tell you if I did it in high school.)

KH is into physics, not computer science.

Something used very regularly (indeed, to the point of you-should-know-this-like-arithmetic), is an example by which you clearly didn't understand -- the example that started this very thread.

You also need to be able to do most types of proof in your sleep -- mostly induction and reductio ad absurdum. You need to know how to do most types of calculus rather trivially (integration specifically), advanced set theory, linear algebra (working with matricies: eigenvalues, eigenvectors, computing normals, etc), harmonic series, LOTS of graph theory (reductions, cliques, etc), ... it's ridiculous to go on.

Computer Science is a form of applied mathematics. It's simply absurd to think you can do it with only high school math...

	19-09-2004 07:42									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Honestly, Aggie, you're a frickin' commie. No communist economy is successful. Even China has a fairly right-wing economy.

You are excluding the middle ground.

Also, the fact that no communist economy is successful proves that a communist economy is not necessarily successful, not that it is automatically unsuccessful.

	19-09-2004 08:48									#76
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quote: I've taken Philosophy of Logic I and II as well. And I can say, if you learned anything in these types of courses, you do not belong in university.

There is more to Philosophy than Logic.

I loved my ethics classes where all the science majors struggled, and the arts students sailed through.

quote: Why should someone have to be taught how to reason? Where is the original thought when somebody instructs you on ridiculous constructs you "must" use?

When you have so many people believing in relativism, then yes, more people should be taught Logic.

quote: The latter. Philosophy, save for the history of it, is not something that should be taught.

I can think of some good reasons to make certain philosophy courses mandatory for different professions. Ethics being the most important.

quote: Is it any wonder why philosphers have become markedly less useful in the modern era? They're taught how to think and what to think, that sure as hell isn't what philosophy should be.

I have gotten more mileage out of my two philosophy courses than I have anything else in my degree.

So I don't consider them to be time wasted.

	19-09-2004 08:50									#77
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Save your breath, Ben. You'd sooner be able to explain Quantum Mechanics to a chimpanzee.

	19-09-2004 09:00									#78
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quote: When you have so many people believing in relativism, then yes, more people should be taught Logic.

You think relativism is illogical?

	19-09-2004 09:28									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I loved my ethics classes where all the science majors struggled, and the arts students sailed through.

Why should it surprise anyone that arts students succeed in the art of bullshit?

They'll go on to be future liars and criminals, running our governments and deceiving the public. The scientists among us will go out and cure cancer and prolong the human lifespan and increase quality of life.

quote: I have gotten more mileage out of my two philosophy courses than I have anything else in my degree. So I don't consider them to be time wasted.

I do -- tell society what their money has done. You've used your philosophy courses and your degrees, to do manual labour? Society has invested tens of thousands of dollars on you and your education, and you squandered it with a degree and courseload that can get you a construction job.

Prime example.

	19-09-2004 09:31									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed (KH, tell me the most complicated maths used regularly in computer science and I'll tell you if I did it in high school. Not that it really matters, apparently my counterglow leg-pull has spilt over into a Really Big Humourless Apolyton Debate™, which means it's no longer fun. Thanks Asher. )

It depends on the speciality.

Typically, anything you can find under the generic heading of "algebra."

	19-09-2004 09:32									#81
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(Which happens to be significantly larger than the algebra usually taught in high school.)

	19-09-2004 09:38									#82
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Quite obviously, I thought

	19-09-2004 10:04									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I can think of some good reasons to make certain philosophy courses mandatory for different professions. Ethics being the most important.

And a technical writing course should be mandatory for all philosophers.

SP

	19-09-2004 10:12									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I can think of some good reasons to make certain philosophy courses mandatory for different professions. Ethics being the most important.

Because of course without a college course in ethics we're all just amoral beings drifting through life...

	19-09-2004 10:29									#85
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It's sort of funny that after Enron, Tyco, Iraq, Clinton, Rather, blah, blah, blah, people would be questioning the benefit of teaching more people that ethics is an actual word in the English language, let alone teaching them about what appropriate ethics are.

	19-09-2004 10:35									#86
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It's sort of funny that after Enron, Tyco, Iraq, Clinton, Rather, blah, blah, blah, people would be questioning the benefit of teaching more people that ethics is an actual word in the English language, let alone teaching them about what appropriate ethics are.

Ethics should not be taught in a classroom...

You think the people behind the Enron scandal didn't know what they did was "unethical"? They sure as hell did. Did they care? No. Would teaching them about ethics change anything? No.

	19-09-2004 10:43									#87
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Yes, of course, Asher. Everything you ever needed to know about the world was taught to you by mommy.

Maybe you overestimate the calibre of the average Joe? Maybe you think that everyone is the perfect human being that you are based on upbringing and a HS diploma?

Perhaps it baffles you that people go to university for reasons other than you have. Perhaps it baffles you that society expects universities to churn out better citizens, not just good technicians.

	19-09-2004 10:55									#88
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It baffles me that you honestly think if the people behind Enron went to an "ethics class", the Enron thing wouldn't have happened...

It baffles me that you think people actually need to be taught that cooking your books is wrong, and that's why we need philosophy classes...

It baffles me that you'd stoop to such a pathetic argument.

	19-09-2004 11:07									#89
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Perhaps the problem with Enron, and other 'problems', is that not enough people paid enough attention to ethics. Maybe someone would have blown the whistle earlier. Certainly not the 'owners', but maybe those who were required to cooperate to carry it along. You know, like that bookkeeper who eventually raised the alarm.

I don't see how teaching the subject could hurt.

	19-09-2004 11:10									#90
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I don't see how it could help, because I honestly have trouble seeing why anyone would not know what they did is not ethical.

I also think if someone does think what they did was ethical, that a philosophy prof telling them otherwise wouldn't change their mind.