25-09-2004 05:37									#31
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I think in their current form they are powerful enough. Shields are incredibly useful at holding someone off until you're ready. The damage is (and should be) incidental. Turning them into a weapon would throw the game out of wack.

	25-09-2004 06:53									#32
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Another thought that i had was to up the number of bases needed to build x size ships, i.e.
1 for frigate
3 for cruiser
5 for battleship
7 for dreadnought
10 for titan

or something similar.

I also had an idea for a defensive minded ship/base, that you cannot move, that has balanced weapons, for simplicity.

3 bases allows outpost with 3l, 3f, 3t, and 9 hp (cost 9bp)
6 bases allows starbase with 6l, 6f, 6t, and 18 hp (cost 18bp)
10 bases allows deathstar with 10l 10f, 10t, and 30hp (cost 30bp)

Defending the 10% shield: Basically 12 titans will take the same damage as now, more will take a little bit more damage but not enough to win the game. Enough to PWN your opponent if you tempt him to attack though.

It just seems more realistic to have something that scales with fleet size.

Lastly, I think the modifiers should only give 50% bonuses instead of 100%, the .5 modifiers should be .75

wow, I even posted in the right thread this time, sparrow....

	25-09-2004 07:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy wow, I even posted in the right thread this time, sparrow....

That you did! and it has inspired me to give opinions which I shouldn't be giving given my knowledge of the game.....

quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy Another thought that i had was to up the number of bases needed to build x size ships, i.e. 1 for frigate 3 for cruiser 5 for battleship 7 for dreadnought 10 for titan

I like this idea, as reading the threads it seems as though building the smaller ships seems largely ignored once the player has more then 5 bases.
Wouldn't keeping it a similar increment make more sense though?

2 for frigate
4 for cruiser
6 for battleship
8 for dreadnought
10 for titan


and I am assuming that the cost would still be the same, or are you suggesting that the BPs required to build a titan would also increase to 10?

quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy I also had an idea for a defensive minded ship/base, that you cannot move, that has balanced weapons, for simplicity. 3 bases allows outpost with 3l, 3f, 3t, and 9 hp (cost 9bp) 6 bases allows starbase with 6l, 6f, 6t, and 18 hp (cost 18bp) 10 bases allows deathstar with 10l 10f, 10t, and 30hp (cost 30bp)

I get the idea, I just don't understand how it would be used or what benefit there would be to having it...I think I need more information on this concept.

quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy Defending the 10% shield: Basically 12 titans will take the same damage as now, more will take a little bit more damage but not enough to win the game. Enough to PWN your opponent if you tempt him to attack though. It just seems more realistic to have something that scales with fleet size.

Agreed, it seems that right now the Shield essentially stops the fleet doing little damage of consequence so I dissagree with Joncha that it is fine as is. Having said that, I also disagree with Ljube's idea of having it damage Titans and completely destroy all other ships. It seems this is too extreme a change.

Therefore damaging/destroying a percentage of the fleet makes sense both for logical reasons and for game balance to me.

quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy Lastly, I think the modifiers should only give 50% bonuses instead of 100%, the .5 modifiers should be .75

The modifiers are the area of the game giving me the most trouble, so I will leave this one to the more experienced players.

quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko What do you think? This time post your opinions please.

Did my best, hopefully meets with your approval

* Sparrowhawk

	25-09-2004 07:15									#34
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While I think some of Spaced's proposal are interesting....

I am of the opinion that GO only needs a little tinkering, not a complete overhaul. I think the balance of offence vs. defence works fairly well now, and I'm a little worried that any major changes would throw it off too much.

	25-09-2004 07:23									#35
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Making shields more powerful tips the balance to the defender. Makes for excessively long game. Constant damage makes sense- one doesn't test the water by jumping in.

Starbase ought to have some sort of cost benefit to be worthwhile. Big ships are useful for alliances, now that we can build more than 6 bases, that sounds like an interesting idea.

	25-09-2004 07:37									#36
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I think the game greatly favours offence with current rules. In order to make the builder strategy viable, we need more powerful shields.

	25-09-2004 07:41									#37
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Also, a note: You cannot issue any of the special orders during the pre-build turn.

	25-09-2004 09:08									#38
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I was just throwing stuff on the table, if anything the 10% shield damage and the bases needed to build ships has the most merit. The defensive ship thing needs to be tabled as well as the reduction of advantages.

I agree with joncha that the game is pretty sound as is, I just saw some goofy battles last round.

Oh and sparrow, i wanted to keep frigates at one base because we have had instances of someone losing all of their "self-built" bases and only having captured ones. At least this way you could still build frigate if you can build one base....also the cost of the ships would be the same, you would have to have more bases under your belt to build the bigger ships.

??? My numbers were hosed....this is a little closer.
4 bases allows outpost with 4l, 4f, 4t, and 24 hp (cost 8bp)
7 bases allows starbase with 7l, 7f, 7t, and 42 hp (cost 14bp)
10 bases allows deathstar with 10l 10f, 10t, and 60hp (cost 20bp)

The basic idea here is to have defensive minded ships that have more firepower and defense for the bp...the bad part is that they cannot be moved.

where is geo anyway.

	25-09-2004 09:49									#39
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IMO that makes defense much too powerful.

	25-09-2004 09:54									#40
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Pre-builds are in.

Defensive outposts are a nice idea, give turtling players the edge while not preventing offensives.

	25-09-2004 10:06									#41
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How about a simple "Defenses" which allow you to convert 1 BP into a certain number of extra hitpoints?

	25-09-2004 14:50									#42
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Shields:

Fine as they are. It would be easy to turn this game into a defence-fest. The balance between defence/attack is about right. Shields are very useful when used at the right times, and can easily provoke whinging about their power.

Static defence:

I don't really like this, since powerful defence again could lead to defence-fests. Weaker and people will probably prefer ships.

Modifiers:

I had similar thoughts about the battles as they stand after a recent game. It is important to note though that our samples are somewhat wonky, since people tend only to attack when they have an overwhelming advantage. On balance I would support a small modifier tweak.


It's important to note that 'builder' games in the Civ sense for GO only mean building bases so as to have a better economy later. There is no real teching since the advantage of later ships is minimal. I for one don't want 'builder' strategies to dominate, because it's quite dull and will lead to standoffs where no one is willing to attack, like NW sometimes. I think the current situation where you want to build bases but constantly have to worry about attacks is the right one.

Therefore:

New ship build limits are , but it's a pointless change unless those later ships provide a real bonus. This I think is what would add to the game, though if something along these lines was added in no way should defensive options be strengthened, for the reasons given above.

	25-09-2004 14:58									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Shields: Fine as they are. It would be easy to turn this game into a defence-fest. The balance between defence/attack is about right. Shields are very useful when used at the right times, and can easily provoke whinging about their power.

Shields are useful only in two situations.

1. When you are out of self-built bases - give you time to recover and start building fleet.
2. Showdown between two opponents in the end-game.

Other than these two special situations, shields are completely useless.

Dispute this if you can.

	25-09-2004 15:17									#44
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I agree entirely with Spike's post.


Well... not entirely, I suppose. I think the "whinging" about shields is not that they are too powerful, but that they can serve to prolong the inevitable. But that's just a quibble.

	25-09-2004 15:17									#45
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Ljube: Early game if you choose to build a base in the prebuild a shield is necessary to provide a defence should someone that went all ships attack you. Lots of people did this last game.

A shield is also useful if you are the obvious target, and need time to stay alive until you are not the obvious target.

Shields are fine. If they were much more powerful they'd discourage attacking too much.

	25-09-2004 15:36									#46
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I am yet to use shield.

	25-09-2004 15:45									#47
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OK, here is the question to vote on:

The fleet that runs into a shield suffers:

A) 12 HP only
B) 12 HP each ally
C) 10% damage
D) 15% damage
E) 20 % damage
F) Loses all size 1-2 ships, size 3, 4 and 5 damaged
G) Loses all size 1-3 ships, size 4 and 5 damaged

Vote until Tuesday.

	25-09-2004 15:56									#48
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A)

	25-09-2004 16:02									#49
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A)

	25-09-2004 18:34									#50
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A)

	25-09-2004 20:20									#51
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B)

	25-09-2004 21:38									#52
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C)

	25-09-2004 22:13									#53
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C)

(by the way if everyone votes early, do we need to wait for Tuesday??)

	25-09-2004 22:21									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Shields are useful only in two situations. 1. When you are out of self-built bases - give you time to recover and start building fleet. 2. Showdown between two opponents in the end-game. Other than these two special situations, shields are completely useless. Dispute this if you can.

3. When you're expecting an attack by an alliance/stronger enemy and need to rebuild your fleet.

	25-09-2004 22:23									#55
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C)

	25-09-2004 22:59									#56
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A)

Also big ships have an advantage- when attacking in an alliance, your ships don't die. Right now though everyone has titans so its kind of pointless, those new numbers (13579) make sense.

	26-09-2004 00:12									#57
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I didn't say there was no advantage. The advantage is small though, which is why I called it minimal, and pointed out that the new build restrictions (which in principle are a decent idea) are pointless unless the better ships have another advantage.

	26-09-2004 03:20									#58
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Yes Doc, but let's leave such changes for GO 6.

My vote is C)

	26-09-2004 03:26									#59
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Ok, then also leave the new base build limits, as they merely cosmetic changes.

	26-09-2004 03:29									#60
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Agreed.