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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Europe is now seeing the conseuquence of it's abandoning it's Christian Roots. As Europe abandons the religiion that defined it for centuries, so too dies it's accompanying values. The old Christian values cherishing the family fades, it is repleased with an atheistic materialism where everything becomes centered on getting the most for themselves. |
False.
Spain and Italy are among the countries of the EU where religions is best established, and they are among the deepest in demographic crisis. France is probably the least devout nation of the EU (at least among pre-2004 members), and is IIRC the European country that suffers the least from the nataility crisis.
In all of Europe, we live in societies where it is accepted to have sex for other purposes than reproduction. Religion or not. Thus, the religious people who have many kids because their religion bans them from using contraceptive or abortions become a . I'm sure it is the same with Americans who are born in the US.
quote:
Why have a child if it is such a painful economic cost? |
This is a real point. The economic cost of a child in European societies is outrageous. In France, the supply of kindergarten (I mean the place where you put your 0-3 years old) answers to 20%-30% of the demand. Women will almost always see their carreer advancement considerably delayed if they decide to have a kid, or will get thinly veiled threats in that regard.
In West Germany, the problem is far worse, as their love for the traditional position of the woman at home means they have basically no kindergarten (0-3 y.o.) to speak of. There is also very little professional protection for a woman who wants to have a kid. Curiously enough, the Germans are much more fond of the idea of the Housewife 100% devoted to her family than the French. Yet, Frau Housewife manages a family of 1 or 2 kids.
quote:
Thus Europe indeeds exits from history, unless it is to re-emerge under the leadership of groups which immigrate to Europe and eventually take over with their culture. |
It is wrong to be deterministic in such a fashion.
1: the "decline of Europe" is a recurring thema since the late 19th century, when the upstart US and Japan showed they were progressing rapidly. It's pretty normal Europe would stop being the center of the world anymore, after spreading our worldview to the whole world for 4 centuries.
The real decline we brought it on ourselves with WW1 and WW2. Europe was a ruinefield, something that was less inviting than many South American countries that looked so promising in comparison back then. We were the toy of American and Soviet influences.
Yet we rebuilt. After decades of fearing our lack of natality, we had the baby-boom. We rebuilt our economies very quickly. We rebuilt politically and started creating European institutions.
And from a has-been ruinefield 60 years ago, we have become a huge economic power, dealing in equals with the US on commercial matters, and whose money ambitions to become a competitor to the dollar. After China, we are the most likely Great Power of the next century.
When we'll die of old age, we'll see if Europe exited from history. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But I don't believe Europe will simply fade out of history. By the time of my death of old age, I actually expect Europe to be one of the Great Powers in an international system that has 3 or 4, and several significant minor Powers that won't be able to be pushed around.
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CerberusIV
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So europe's population will decline. So what?
Less people means less pressure to develop land = better environment. People will have to work longer and probably never totally retire.
Healthwise it depends on medical progress. Need a new heart? Within a couple of decades you can probably have a brand new heart, cloned from one of your own cells, transplanted in to replace the old one. Degenerative brain disease? There will probably be a cure through stem cells. (Bush and chums may want a global ban on cloning and stem cell research but europe has too much to lose to ever agree).
I'm 43 and expect to live as long again, barring accidents. I know I'll almost certainly have to still be working part time into my 70's, both for the money and to keep my mind and body active. I really don't see a problem here.
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tomcat ha
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europe isnt the most powerfull area in the world for 4 centuries. they were from about 1750`s till WW1 WW2ish.
The stupid europeans will never accept muslims like me and i know it as i live in the netherlands.
The possiblities are 1: the growth rate will get higher again. no real problems. 2: if the world economy collapses cause of the high price of oil the people. we might see a third hitler(second one was pol pot). 3: people will just fade away and has immigration drops(it is doing that here) the middle east will get more powerfull.
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tomcat ha
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actually i can speak better dutch than turkish. i have more dutch friends than turkish. the dutch just never say i hate muslims out right but seceretly they are racist.
Till about 1700 the middle east was the most powerfull area in the world. eg: ottoman empire and the persian empire to the right of which i forgot the name.
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24-09-2004 08:25
deal with it
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