24-09-2004 20:54									#61
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quote: Originally posted by tomcat ha actually i can speak better dutch than turkish. i have more dutch friends than turkish. the dutch just never say i hate muslims out right but seceretly they are racist.

Sounds like paranoia to me.

	24-09-2004 20:59									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Or is it even slightly possible that you haven't bothered to make enough effort to blend in?

Why should they?

	24-09-2004 21:08									#63
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quote: 3: people will just fade away and has immigration drops(it is doing that here) the middle east will get more powerfull.

With what? Selling sand?
The timeline we're talking about here, is past the the glory days of oil ( hopefully).

quote: Why should they?

Why shouldn't they?

	24-09-2004 21:10									#64
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I feel sorry for Kuci's neighbours if that's his real attitude to entering a new society.

	24-09-2004 21:12									#65
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quote: Originally posted by tomcat ha Till about 1700 the middle east was the most powerfull area in the world. eg: ottoman empire and the persian empire to the right of which i forgot the name.

Let's just say that's not the consensus among professional historians.

	24-09-2004 22:59									#66
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When we're talking about the EU, it's surely unfair to focus on the very worst countries with regards to population growth. Sure, Germany and Italy have wretched demographics, but the same is not true for the UK, France, Spain, which are at least stable.

And the EU has increased its population enormously by assimilating new countries. True, many of these countries have rotten population growth, but it's still an increase.

EU states don't have to limit immigration because of the difficulties of assimilating into a new culture, either. Large swathes of the world have European culture already. Is it possible for Spain, for example, to be 'swamped' by immigration from the Hispanic World, for example? I'd say no. Language and religion; it's a perfect match.

A lack of 'family' doesn't matter one bit. The sentimental notion of mum, dad and two kids is a relatively recent invention, and there are loads of other reproductive arrangements that are as good or better for spurring population growth. The governments of the EU should probably divert some of that pension cash to childcare; it would pay off in the long run. Sure, it's moving in the direction of children being raised entirely by the state, but I have no problem with that.

	24-09-2004 23:30									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman When we're talking about the EU, it's surely unfair to focus on the very worst countries with regards to population growth. Sure, Germany and Italy have wretched demographics, but the same is not true for the UK, France, Spain, which are at least stable.

Ey? Last I heard, Spain had worse population growth than Germany.

	24-09-2004 23:48									#68
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just like the majority of the historians believe that there was a genocide by turks on armenians.

Spain was powerfull but the real power was in the middle east. after 1700 or so it was equal till 1750 when west europe gained the upper hand.

	24-09-2004 23:54									#69
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quote: Originally posted by tomcat ha just like the majority of the historians believe that there was a genocide by turks on armenians.

And what's your opinion on this subject?

	24-09-2004 23:59									#70
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I'm sensing a revisionist here. But let's catapult any further discussion of that into another thread; it's got nothing to do with European demographic trends.

	25-09-2004 00:03									#71
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quote: Originally posted by tomcat ha just like the majority of the historians believe that there was a genocide by turks on armenians.

	25-09-2004 00:46									#72
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quote: Originally posted by tomcat ha just like the majority of the historians believe that there was a genocide by turks on armenians. .

Why wouldn't they? It's a matter of Historical fact!

	25-09-2004 00:57									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Ey? Last I heard, Spain had worse population growth than Germany.

The CIA world factbook gives it a growth of 0.16%. Not much, but not in decline like Germany or Italy.

	25-09-2004 01:01									#74
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Turkey doesn't recognise it. In fact, it claims that Armenians massacred Turks. I've had an opportunity to read a passage in Turkish historical book. It was amazing.

	25-09-2004 01:39									#75
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im reading a very interesting book about armenians. i`ll get the book right now. it tells about the stuff the armenians did and why did got removed from theire homes.

the book is called: Armenia secrets of a "chrisitian"terrorist state. written by Samuel A Weems

	25-09-2004 01:46									#76
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Surely it is a noble book indeed, if I can judge it on the title..
I can accept that some Armenian partisants may have done some wrong to local Turks or Kurds, especially after earlier massacres on Armenians. But the final result of all the turmoil was that
on all territory that Turks managed to keep, Armenians disappeared The only reason that the shred of Armenia survived was that the Turks didn't manage to conquer it.
Also, Syrian Christians were treaten the same. And You can not accuse them of any partisant activity or collaborating with Russians.
Not to mention that the persecutions and massacres hit Armenians everywhere in the entire Ottoman Empire.

	25-09-2004 02:06									#77
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: Why should they? Why shouldn't they?

Because they don't want to?

Why should they have to fit in?

	25-09-2004 02:32									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Because they don't want to? Why should they have to fit in?

If they don't want to fit in, they should stay out. As simple as that.

quote: europe isnt the most powerfull area in the world for 4 centuries. they were from about 1750`s till WW1 WW2ish.

Hm... 1750's You say?
The last time Europe was really threatened militarily by some other region was Vienna...
and that was much earlier, and European navy was already stronger before.
Middle East was back then already behind Europe in other aspects back then I believe.

quote: The stupid europeans will never accept muslims like me and i know it as i live in the netherlands.

First of all, if Europeans annoy You that much that You have to offend them, leave them.
Secondly: what is that the Europeans don't want to accept in You as a Muslim exactly?

quote: 3: people will just fade away and has immigration drops(it is doing that here) the middle east will get more powerfull.

That's a wishful thinking of Yours.
Middle East economy, except for Turkey and Israel, consists mostly on exporting oil and importing tourists.
And this oil heaven will end in a few decades.

	25-09-2004 02:34									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Because they don't want to? Why should they have to fit in?

It falls upon immigrants to assimilate into the nation's society, not the other way around.

	25-09-2004 03:07									#80
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i never said that the middle easy will gain more power than europe just that the middle east will get more power.

The people of the country in which the immigrants have went to have to adapt aswell. Currently they want them to be assimilated. the only thing they want to have is the food and not that not even always.

The ottoman empire was still very strong around 1700.
Same for the persian empire to the right of it.

	25-09-2004 03:21									#81
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quote: Originally posted by tomcat ha i never said that the middle easy will gain more power than europe just that the middle east will get more power.

Still, I see no reason how ME could become more important with decline of Europe.

quote: The people of the country in which the immigrants have went to have to adapt aswell.

Not at all. If You don't like it, there are many others that will eagerly come on your place.

quote: Currently they want them to be assimilated. the only thing they want to have is the food and not that not even always.

So You're complaining, because You want food, and the state doesn't give it to You?

quote: The ottoman empire was still very strong around 1700. Same for the persian empire to the right of it.

ha, 1699 was Karlowice treaty...
Ottoman Empire lost a war against completely anarchic at the time Poland, which had problems with maintaining 20 000 army...

	25-09-2004 03:21									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson If they don't want to fit in, they should stay out. As simple as that.

"We believe in liberty, and others are at liberty to stay away from us!" said the New England Puritans about liberty and their theocratic state.

	25-09-2004 03:24									#83
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Europe is not theocratic at all...
If You apply for a job, You can take it or not take it, but if You're not a world class specialist, You can't expect the job to adapt to your personal needs

	25-09-2004 03:37									#84
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no no no the people here just want the food the other cultures have the rest they do not want to have.

they lost hungary cause of the poles attacking then from behind while they were under protection by the ottoman empire and the tartar leader who was supposed to guard the rear left.

	25-09-2004 03:46									#85
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quote: Originally posted by tomcat ha no no no the people here just want the food the other cultures have the rest they do not want to have. they lost hungary cause of the poles attacking then from behind while they were under protection by the ottoman empire and the tartar leader who was supposed to guard the rear left.

Who was under protection of the Ottoman Empire? Poland?

	25-09-2004 07:00									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Europe is not theocratic at all...

Not my point. However, it's not in any way a doctrine of liberty to say "they have the freedom to stay away".

quote: If You apply for a job, You can take it or not take it, but if You're not a world class specialist, You can't expect the job to adapt to your personal needs

If they have the money to pay for transport to the country, and to pay for food and lodging, why shouldn't you let them in?

	25-09-2004 07:29									#87
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quote: Not my point. However, it's not in any way a doctrine of liberty to say "they have the freedom to stay away".

And it's fine that way.
Immigrants don't like the liberty we have - we'll let immigrants which will appreciate that.

quote: If they have the money to pay for transport to the country, and to pay for food and lodging, why shouldn't you let them in?

If they have no respect for local law or tradition, they should not be let in and economic aspect is irrelevant.

	25-09-2004 07:31									#88
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Of course they have to respect local law. Why should they have to respect your "society" though?

	25-09-2004 07:40									#89
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because they are not only becoming a part of the state, but also a part of the society

	25-09-2004 07:43									#90
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I agree with 100% of what KUCITEXASRANGER has said in this thread.

Should I be afraid, or should he?