24-09-2004 19:07									#31
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I find there wouldn't be Apolyton without Suomithreadis.

Though what meesa saying, it's obvious that Suomithreadi's can't compare to the endless "Look, here's Sophie from a whole different angle" photofest.

	24-09-2004 19:09									#32
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It's Sophie...

Isn't it?

edit: Damn DanSing Finns...

	24-09-2004 19:24									#33
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Joe Lockhart makes the position of the Kerry campaign on Allawi crystal clear...

quote: “The last thing you want to be seen as is a puppet of the United States, and you can almost see the hand underneath the shirt today moving the lips,” said Joe Lockhart, a senior Kerry adviser.

Guess Joe has been so busy colluding with CBS to attack the President with forged documents that he has been unable to brush up on his diplomatic skills.

Krauthammer says it better than I could...

quote: The Art Of Losing Friends By Charles Krauthammer Friday, September 24, 2004; Page A25 Of all our allies in the world, which is the only one to have joined the United States in the foxhole in every war in the past 100 years? Not Britain, not Canada, certainly not France. The answer is Australia. Australia does not share only a community of values with the United States. It understands that its safety rests ultimately on a stable international structure that, in turn, rests not on parchment treaties but on the power and credibility of the United States. Which is why Australia is with us today in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Australian Prime Minister John Howard has taken great risks and much political heat for his support of America. There is a national election in Australia on Oct. 9, and the race is neck and neck between Howard and Labor Party leader Mark Latham. Latham has pledged to withdraw from Iraq. This is a critical election not only for Australia but also for the United States. Think of the effect on America, its front-line soldiers and its coalition partners if one of its closest allies turns tail and runs. The terrorists are well aware of this potential effect. Everyone knows about the train bombings in Madrid that succeeded in bringing down a pro-American government and led to Spain's precipitous withdrawal from Iraq. But few here noticed that this month's car bombing in Jakarta, Indonesia, was designed to have precisely the same effect. Where was the bomb set off? At the Australian Embassy. When was it set off? Just weeks before the Australian election and just three days before the only televised debate between Howard and Latham. The terrorists' objective is to intimidate all countries allied with America. Make them bleed and tell them this is the price they pay for being a U.S. ally. The implication is obvious: Abandon America and buy your safety. That is what the terrorists are saying. Why is the Kerry campaign saying the same thing? "John Kerry's campaign has warned Australians that the Howard Government's support for the US in Iraq has made them a bigger target for international terrorists." So reports the Weekend Australian (Sept. 18). Americans Overseas for Kerry is the Kerry operation for winning the crucial votes of Americans living abroad (remember the Florida recount?), including more than 100,000 who live in Australia. Its leader was interviewed Sept. 16 by The Australian's Washington correspondent, Roy Eccleston. Asked if she believed the terrorist threat to Australians was now greater because of the support for President Bush, she replied: "I would have to say that," noting that "[t]he most recent attack was on the Australian embassy in Jakarta." She said this of her country (and of the war that Australia is helping us with in Iraq): "[W]e are endangering the Australians now by this wanton disregard for international law and multilateral channels." Mark Latham could not have said it better. Nor could Jemaah Islamiah, the al Qaeda affiliate that killed nine people in the Jakarta bombing. This Kerry spokesman, undermining a key ally on the eve of a critical election, is no rogue political operative. She is the head of Americans Overseas for Kerry -- Diana Kerry, sister to John. She is, of course, merely echoing her brother, who, at a time when allies have shown great political courage in facing down both terrorists and domestic opposition for their assistance to the United States in Iraq, calls these allies the "coalition of the coerced and the bribed." This snide and reckless put-down more than undermines our best friends abroad. It demonstrates the cynicism of Kerry's promise to broaden our coalition in Iraq. If this is how Kerry repays America's closest allies -- ridiculing the likes of Tony Blair and John Howard -- who does he think is going to step up tomorrow to be America's friend? The only thing that distinguishes Kerry's Iraq proposals from Bush's is his promise to deploy his unique, near-mystical ability to bring in new allies to fight and pay for the war in Iraq -- to "make Iraq the world's responsibility" and get others to "share the burden," as he said this week at New York University. Yet even Richard Holbrooke, a top Kerry foreign policy adviser, admits that the president of France is not going to call up President Kerry and say, "How many divisions should I send to Iraq?" Nor will anyone else. Kerry abuses America's closest friends while courting those, like Germany and France, that have deliberately undermined America before, during and after the war. What lessons are leaders abroad to draw from this when President Kerry asks them -- pretty please in his most mellifluous French -- to put themselves on the line for the United States?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Sep23.html

Amazing! Kerry the Diplomat can even make Bush the Diplomat looked skilled! This guy is unbelievable!

	24-09-2004 19:27									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu I find there wouldn't be Apolyton without Suomithreadis. Though what meesa saying, it's obvious that Suomithreadi's can't compare to the endless "Look, here's Sophie from a whole different angle" photofest.

Steuf, I didn't know you cared.

	24-09-2004 20:10									#35
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Waitasecond... Americans still haven't figured out they were the evil side in Vietnam? Surely supporting North Vietnam was the only right thing to do, no matter your nationality, because they had morality on their side.

	24-09-2004 22:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Waitasecond... Americans still haven't figured out they were the evil side in Vietnam? Surely supporting North Vietnam was the only right thing to do, no matter your nationality, because they had morality on their side.

Its not a matter of support for North Vietnam or otherwise. By involving himself illegally in the process of negotiations he undercut the Prez's negotiating position and thereby caused additional untold deaths to Vietnamese and US soliders and continued the internment of POW's as the war was unintendedly exteneded.

This is the reason for U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, Section 953: Private correspondence with foreign governments, to prevent misguided bunglers like Kerry from screwing up the works. Lord knows it was FUBAR enough on its own.

A lesson he didn't learn as he tried the same thing as a rogue Senator in Nicarauga in 1985.



I use the words like misguided bungler because according to Kerry (in the Oneil vs. Kerry debate on Cabot) when questioned about the the minimal amount of political prisoners to be expected in SV he stood by estimates that would have been but a few thousand were theh US to pull out and leave SV to its own devices. He got his wish only to see millions dead as a consequence. Ooops guess he just goofed. Maybe his estimates will be better this go 'round, NOT.

	25-09-2004 00:30									#37
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OMG JON KERRY BETRAYED HIA COUNTRY HE IEATS BABIES KILSL INNOCNET CHILDREN OMG RUN!

No he doesn't.

YES HE DOE SLOOK H E WENT TO VIETNAM AND HE EATS BABIES AND KILLS INNOCENT CHILDREN AND HE BETRAYED HIC COUNTRY HES A COMMUNIST SPIE OM GRUN!

Um, no.

OMG ARE U A RTERRROIST HE SISDED WITH THE NORTH VIETNAM HE ATE SMALL CHIDLREN FOR BREAKFAST HE BETRAYED HIS COUNTRY VOTE BUSH IN 04 USA USA USA!1!!!11

Repeat 2,000 times.

	25-09-2004 00:32									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Course on April 18, 1985 he went with Senator Harkin without the approval of the Senate to likewise to offer aid and support to Manuel Ortega in Nicarauga in stark contrast to the Presidents policy.

Which at that time was to illegally funnel funds against Congress's express wishes. If IIRC several Reagan admin. members were indicted for that.

	25-09-2004 00:38									#39
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The UK and Australia have no chance to stop being lackeys at this point, having hitched their horses to Bush, horribly unpopular policies at home.

What is sad, and Krazy Krauthammer seems oblivious too is that we have about 3 friends left thanks to Bush. That is pathetic.

	25-09-2004 00:39									#40
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quote: Of all our allies in the world, which is the only one to have joined the United States in the foxhole in every war in the past 100 years? Not Britain, not Canada, certainly not France. The answer is Australia.

Australia aided us during the Philippine Insurrection? During the twenty year occupation of Vietnam? During the invasion of the Dominican Republic? Panama? Grenada?

	25-09-2004 00:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Its not a matter of support for North Vietnam or otherwise. By involving himself illegally in the process of negotiations he undercut the Prez's negotiating position and thereby caused additional untold deaths to Vietnamese and US soliders and continued the internment of POW's as the war was unintendedly exteneded.

How did he undercut the Prez? By talking to the Vietnamese and then reporting what they told him when he got home? When foreign diplomacy rests on keeping the American people ignorant, then we are in trouble.

	25-09-2004 00:46									#42
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Australia did send troops to Vietnam, and Korea.

Druing both world wars thought Australia joined given the fact its Soverign, the United Kingdom, was at war. So its really bolocks to say Australia joined to help their ally the US.

After WW2 the Aussies have seen the US as their savior from the yellow peril first, then the reds, now whomever.

	25-09-2004 00:47									#43
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Which means what? Two wrongs make a right.

Face it you 've got a history of Kerry jumping into affairs where he is illegally representing the interest of the US government in direct conflict with the direction provided by the commander in chief. No wonder the SBV's were saying he was a loose cannon who couldn't follow orders. Couple that with the fact that his espoused directions in both cases was exactly the wrong course of action. Immediate withdrawal and no support for SV resulted in millions dead, and in the Nicarauguan situation given the first time they had free elections the Sandanistas were roundly rejected. Makes me think him great leadership material.

	25-09-2004 00:49									#44
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Yes, he is an independent maverick interested in the affairs of the US and willing to take his deep convictions and turn them into action: unlike the intellectual slug W was before becoming a religious fundie and freak.

And you want the fundie?

You weirdo.

	25-09-2004 00:53									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How did he undercut the Prez? By talking to the Vietnamese and then reporting what they told him when he got home? When foreign diplomacy rests on keeping the American people ignorant, then we are in trouble.

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

-- U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, Section 953: Private correspondence with foreign governments


I'ld classify all his talks with the Paris envoy as correspondence clear and simple. Now unless he has a letter from Congress or Tricky Dick assigning him authority to do so, it obvious to me he was in violation.

	25-09-2004 01:00									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, he is an independent maverick interested in the affairs of the US and willing to take his deep convictions and turn them into action

OMFGGG! F TEH KKKEEEEEEEEERYY WINZ ITS HOLOCOST!! NUCLEER WAR!!11111111111

HE PUSHZ DA BUTTTONZ!

	25-09-2004 01:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. -- U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, Section 953: Private correspondence with foreign governments

Let me highlight the relevent parts. Under which of these does Kerry's conduct fall? If Kerry had broken the law, you can be sure that Nixon would have had his ass in Ft. Levenworth.

	25-09-2004 01:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, he is an independent maverick interested in the affairs of the US and willing to take his deep convictions and turn them into action: unlike the intellectual slug W was before becoming a religious fundie and freak. And you want the fundie? You weirdo.

Does this mean you support the like of Timothy McVeigh.
He also took action based on his deep convictions in the interest of the US?

There are many others like him that you should honor based on your definition.

Just who is the weirdo here

	25-09-2004 01:23									#49
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Me.

	25-09-2004 01:29									#50
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Well that's a given

	25-09-2004 01:40									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Let me highlight the relevent parts. Under which of these does Kerry's conduct fall? If Kerry had broken the law, you can be sure that Nixon would have had his ass in Ft. Levenworth.

Let me see, he talked with negotiating parties in order to find out their positions only and gave no indication of his positions is what you are describing?

OTOH, He then by proxy comes back and on internationally televised airwaves describes his own positions and signals them accordingly. This defines correspondence and intercourse. Hence the where ever he may be portion of the code.

Pretty clear to me, even if he did not sit at the table and give his consent to Paris delegation which has not been proven or disproven.

	25-09-2004 01:46									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. -- U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, Section 953: Private correspondence with foreign governments

Doesn't change the fact that it's not a good thing if our foreign policy depends on keeping the populace ignorant.

Plus, I'd say that law is pretty blatantly unconstitutional.

	25-09-2004 01:48									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Let me see, he talked with negotiating parties in order to find out their positions only and gave no indication of his positions is what you are describing?

And you're missing the part where it's only criminal if he's trying to influence the negotiating parties or trying to defeat the United States.

	25-09-2004 01:54									#54
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He said as much in front of Congress order to pull out ASAP, hence he sure as hell was trying to influence them.

	25-09-2004 01:55									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. -- U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, Section 953: Private correspondence with foreign governments Doesn't change the fact that it's not a good thing if our foreign policy depends on keeping the populace ignorant. Plus, I'd say that law is pretty blatantly unconstitutional.

Then it needs to be struck down by SCOTUS.

	25-09-2004 01:57									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe He said as much in front of Congress order to pull out ASAP, hence he sure as hell was trying to influence them.

He was trying to influence Congress, not the negotiators. Influencing Congress is legal, at least if you have the money.

	25-09-2004 02:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He was trying to influence Congress, not the negotiators. Influencing Congress is legal, at least if you have the money.

I disagree completely he was trying to influence the peace process which included both parties.


If he wanted to influence only the senate it should have been done behind closed doors to prevent signalling NV.

	25-09-2004 02:05									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I disagree completely he was trying to influence the peace process which included both parties. If he wanted to influence only the senate it should have been done behind closed doors to prevent signalling NV.

So now people aren't allowed to freely try and petition Congress in a way that other people could find out?

	25-09-2004 02:05									#59
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I guess that must be why Nixon, who hated Kerry's guts and was looking into anyway to get the guy finally was able to send him to prison.

If there was any there there, Kerry would have been convicted of a crime.

	25-09-2004 02:06									#60
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quote: Then it needs to be struck down by SCOTUS.

Someone has to sue on the lower end of that Code provision first.