29-09-2004 05:20									#91
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Do they have a flag? No flag, no country, thats the rule.

	29-09-2004 05:33									#92
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Unlike my favorite relativist friends I have the ability of being coherent

Actually the opposite. You are surrounded in your doubletalk.

quote: How many in Texas feel like their adherence to the US is forced?

Why didn't you ask them in 1860? Was it wrong for the US to bring them back into the fold?

quote: Of course when people come to change their mind about a political situation the right to secession becomes absurd.

You mean like over 50% of Quebecois voting to stay in Canada?

quote: At the time Quebec joined the Confederation, it was an oppressed country under military occupation.

And it ain't now. It is of no consequence how it joined. Years and years of history indicate that Quebec is not being oppressed.

Btw, when Texas (and the rest of the South) rejoined the union they were also an oppressed country under military occupation.

quote: When one assumes that the Anglos of Montreal could preserve their association with Canada, they mean that the voting districts where their votes are taken and counted do have some kind of legitimacy as political entities, while in fact they are arbitrary administrative abstractions to make elections proceed more fluently.

Who said that? Montreal itself is an Anglo city. It has nothing to do with 'voting districts', but an entire city and geographical region.

quote: 1. A group of people cannot be oppressed when one of its delegates holds high magistrature in the government. 2. Hermann Goering was homosexual.

Any proof Goering was a homosexual? And even if he was, I can assure you it was not known he was one.

Everyone knows the PM is from Quebec. Everyone knows that the Liberal party is dominated by Quebec. It ain't a strawman at all, but an uncomfortable fact that you can't explain away. And goes to prove your claims about Quebec's oppressed status is long behind it.

quote: They are a clear minority and not a distinct nation within another

They belong to a distinct nation, ie, Canadian. A seperate Quebec rips the nation asunder and those part of the Canadian nation stuck inside a non-Canadian entity.

	29-09-2004 05:39									#93
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Who said that? Montreal itself is an Anglo city. It has nothing to do with 'voting districts', but an entire city and geographical region.

	29-09-2004 05:52									#94
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Typo... I meant parts of Montreal are basically Anglo (or Canadian if you want) cities, like West Island. Which isn't a 'voting district', but a distinct geographical region.

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 29-09-2004 at 05:57

	29-09-2004 06:00									#95
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

OK Imran I will give you the numbers at least instead of laughing at you.

Languages with % of people speaking it most often at home, island of Montreal:

French: 56,4%
English: 24,6%
Other: 18,6%

When the same stats are given for the whole metropolitan area, the picture gets even clearer:

French: 70,7%
English: 17,4%
Other: 11,9%

So the parts were English people are majoritary are absurdly small: they are limited to some streets in the city.

Edit: I've been DanSed

	29-09-2004 06:00									#96
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Typo... I meant parts of Montreal are basically Anglo (or Canadian if you want) cities, like West Island. Which isn't a 'voting district', but a distinct geographical region.

Damn... will have to change my sig

	29-09-2004 06:04									#97
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Quebec's national anthem WILL NOT be some Celine Dion's song, right?

	29-09-2004 06:15									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc With the collapse of Canada and a lot of added territory for the US.

I didn't know you wanted the US to lean further left politically.

	29-09-2004 07:43									#99
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris This is not terribly important anyway, as again you missed the point. At the time Quebec joined the Confederation, it was an oppressed country under military occupation. This historical problem has not been solved.

Actually, it was a self governing colony with all the same rights, and some extra, as any other of BNA. The legislature of the Colony opted to join.

It is of note that the issue was hotly contested in the Maritimes even after Confederation (the possibility of repeal being considered). That was not so in Quebec.

	29-09-2004 07:45									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And incidently, because of some of the special concessions made to Quebec prior to Confederation, Francos and RCs have enjoyed the same rights nationally ever since. The right to a seperate school system being one of them.

	29-09-2004 07:46									#101
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, it was a self governing colony with all the same rights, and some extra, as any other of BNA. The legislature of the Colony opted to join.

The choice was Canada or England, not Canada or autonomy! Remember that a republican rebellion in Quebec had been crushed a mere 30 years before the Confederation.

quote: It is of note that the issue was hotly contested in the Maritimes even after Confederation (the possibility of repeal being considered). That was not so in Quebec.

Those were the times. It still remains that the population never was given the choice, and that it became increasingly angry over that in starting in the 60s.

	29-09-2004 07:48									#102
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And incidently, because of some of the special concessions made to Quebec prior to Confederation, Francos and RCs have enjoyed the same rights nationally ever since. The right to a seperate school system being one of them.

Which was canceled almost everywhere.

	29-09-2004 08:14									#103
	Increase Your PM Length

As were rebellions in Ontario. Responsible government was desired. Responsible government was achieved in 1867.

The population got a choice in the people it returned as reps to the Legislature. That is the way this works. It's the way we governed ourselves then, and it is the way we govern ourselves now.

	29-09-2004 08:17									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Which was canceled almost everywhere.

No, it has not been. There are seperate school systems across the land to this day as a consequence of the Quebec Act and the assent of Quebec to Confederation.

	29-09-2004 08:20									#105
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither As were rebellions in Ontario. Responsible government was desired. Responsible government was achieved in 1867.

Those were not of the same nature.

quote: The population got a choice in the people it returned as reps to the Legislature. That is the way this works. It's the way we governed ourselves then, and it is the way we govern ourselves now.

Interestingly, the elected legislature held sufficient legitimacy to join the Confederation - so why wouldn't an elected PQ have the right to leave it?

Admit it, there was a democratic deficit back in the times. In the RoC no one cares because it's still what they want. Here things have evolved differently.

	29-09-2004 08:21									#106
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To be a senior civil servant, and to be stationed in Western Canada, one will have to be bilingual. This is because of Quebec being a part of Canada, and most importantly, because of Quebec French is important to our nation from sea to sea.

	29-09-2004 08:23									#107
	Put an end to popups!

quote: The population got a choice in the people it returned as reps to the Legislature.

Indeed. That is the way it works. If Quebec was so opposed to being a part of Canada, it shouldn't have sent reps to Parliament. But it did. It acquiesed.

	29-09-2004 08:26									#108
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Indeed. That is the way it works. If Quebec was so opposed to being a part of Canada, it shouldn't have sent reps to Parliament. But it did. It acquiesed.

Elections are organized by the federal government. Quebec currently has 54 separatist reps in Ottawa (out of 75).

	29-09-2004 08:30									#109
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Interestingly, the elected legislature held sufficient legitimacy to join the Confederation - so why wouldn't an elected PQ have the right to leave it? Admit it, there was a democratic deficit back in the times. In the RoC no one cares because it's still what they want. Here things have evolved differently.

As Imran noted earlier, there is no universal right to sucede. It effects more than just the people of the jurisdiction who want to go.

The fact it took a hundred years for a group to take up the cause, and none of them were alive when the original deal was struck, speaks a bit of inventing reasons if this is the basis of the arguement, to me.

Incidently, I am a bit struck by the conflicting claims to the power of self determinism. I myself have said from time to time that Alberta could hold a vote to be able to pack up and leave. Under certain circumstances I think it might be justified, or at the very least that a great many people might have good reason to be dissatisfied. However, that would be based in current situations, not the facts of the origin of the province.

	29-09-2004 08:32									#110
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Those were not of the same nature.

Actually, they were after the same things. Responsible government.

	29-09-2004 08:35									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Elections are organized by the federal government

Refuse to vote in them then. Don't allow them to set up polling stations. Break them down.

Is everyone a wuss in Quebec?

And isn't it kind of wierd that if Quebec was so dissatisfied with the union with Canada and no one thought of holding a secession referendum at that time?

	29-09-2004 12:26									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Do they have a flag? No flag, no country, thats the rule.

But of course.



(Greenland, not Quebec btw)

	29-09-2004 12:51									#113
	Increase Your PM Length

It's VERY NICE. It looks like a compromise between Polish and Japaneese flag, with a little bit of Indonesia!

	29-09-2004 16:32									#114
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

oops

	29-09-2004 16:35									#115
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here ya go.

Attachment: eh.gif
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).

	29-09-2004 16:36									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

that's a nice one too

bizarro finland?

	30-09-2004 08:17									#117
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, they were after the same things. Responsible government.

Errr... no. The French Canadians (well, the leaders of the rebellion should I say) sought to create an independant republic founded on the principles of the French Revolution.

	30-09-2004 08:21									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Elections are organized by the federal government Refuse to vote in them then. Don't allow them to set up polling stations. Break them down. Is everyone a wuss in Quebec?

Unfortunately yes. Personally I got confronted by the police when I was caught changing the street name panels to that of a prominent separatist. (The street was Dorchester Boulevard, named from a British governor of the 19th century. I changed it back to its true name, Boulevard René-Lévesque )

quote: And isn't it kind of wierd that if Quebec was so dissatisfied with the union with Canada and no one thought of holding a secession referendum at that time?

at the time, it was just unthinkable. Again, shall I have to tell you that the province was garrisoned by British soldiers?

	30-09-2004 08:40									#119
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither As Imran noted earlier, there is no universal right to sucede. It effects more than just the people of the jurisdiction who want to go.

This statement is so broad it can barely be discussed. The UN clearly recognizes the right to "self-determination", though. Of course then, according to you, the people of Britain should have voted about the independance of African colonies?

quote: The fact it took a hundred years for a group to take up the cause, and none of them were alive when the original deal was struck, speaks a bit of inventing reasons if this is the basis of the arguement, to me.

This is not the basis of my argument. It's just the legalistic part of it. There is just no way to pretend that Canada right now has any more legitimacy than Quebec, because in effect there was never any strong and consensual choice, done in a democratic manner choice.

To claim that Quebec doesn't have the right to secede because Canada just happens to hold jurisdiction over its territory out of an historical contingency sounds to me like a weak argument.

I do believe that a right to secession can reasonably exist under certain conditions, and I've certainly done more than my fair share of efforts to describe how and when it should be limited, in this thread and others.

The Supreme Court acknowledged that by virtue of its constitution, Ottawa would be forced to discuss in goodwill with the government of Quebec in case of a Yes. This simple statement opens a lot of doors; obviously, there is no 'discussion' (as has been demonstrated by Meech) witthout the threat of separation. This is why referendum questions develop in two stages: do you agree to secession after a formal offer of partnership has been made?

Today's values and situation, whatever might be the motives driving sovereignists (historical or not), do point towards the eventuality of a peaceful and democratic solution, and this is why the PQ is playing its game fairly. After all, if a right to secession does not exist, as keep hammering my relativist friend over there, it can by his logic be gained through war, as legitimacy according to him is a de facto state granted by a monopoly of violence.

I sincerely hope that in 2004 the Canadian people would rather use common sense to agree on peaceful methods - as I pointed out earlier, it is crystal clear that Quebec, up to the hearts of its citizens who deem themselves (by a comfortable majority) 'Quebecois' before 'Canadian' - to recognize that right to self-determination which unfortunately isn't much respected by the conservative international law.

	30-09-2004 09:22									#120
	Suffering from ads?

What if that discussion is framed by the bits that want to stay get to stay?

The RoC would be discussing it.