28-09-2004 08:00									#61
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quote: his doesn't cause the companies to change their policies.

Lawyers do . People ***** about lawyers, but run to them as soon as they are wronged. The biggest changes in industries have come from successful lawsuits (see Ford Pinto).

	28-09-2004 08:00									#62
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Customers cause people to change their policies, not lawyers. As a customer you have the ability to 1. Make your problem known to others 2. Make clear your opinion 3. Take your money elsewhere. While AOL is known for shady practices, the fact that Pekka's mom kept paying only emboldens them. If you don't want them to do this anymore, stop paying and spread the word.

	28-09-2004 08:03									#63
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Bull customers cause companies to change policies. The reason dangerous cars were taken off the road was not because people stopped buying them (they didn't), it was because massive lawsuits which Detroit didn't want to pay anymore.

Customers can be dumb at times and do things which they only later realize was a huge mistake. Lawyers can help keep companies that have misled the public honest.

After all, how many customers have left AOL over this stuff and have you seen AOL change their policy? But one good lawsuit... and you'll see an overhaul.

	28-09-2004 08:05									#64
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quote: Lawyers do . People ***** about lawyers, but run to them as soon as they are wronged. The biggest changes in industries have come from successful lawsuits (see Ford Pinto).

Yet more stunning conservatism from our resident "conservative". Kerry can't figure out what he is either, let alone what he wants to do, you should go chat with him. Lawyers are the reason the health system is in trouble because doctors can't afford malpractice insurance anymore due to people like John Edwards. Tired of your health care being so high? Well just think about all those people who filed lawsuits against doctors and all the money the lawyers made off of it and how much higher insurance kept rising everytime a doctor got nailed and then look at your hospital bill. The money has to come from somewhere and everytime costs of operation are raised it gets passed down to the customer. Remember that the next time you are filing a class action lawsuit.

	28-09-2004 08:07									#65
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quote: Lawyers are the reason the health system is in trouble because doctors can't afford malpractice insurance anymore due to people like John Edwards.

I'm sorry that doctors are upset that they have to pay for their massive screw ups. Yeah, cutting off the wrong leg or leaving a scalpel inside someone is going to result in you paying through the nose. I feel so sorry for those doctors! They should be immunized from responsibility .

	28-09-2004 08:24									#66
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While I agree with Imran that lawyers are necessary. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be caps on pain and suffering. I'd be more in favor of strengthened regulators but that isn't the American way.

	28-09-2004 08:36									#67
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You know Imran I'm pretty sure if we went and looked at these cases that were filed, you wouldn't find people's legs getting cut off when they're not supposed to. You're bringing up cases that got national attention and they're few and far between. The fact is lawyers are out of control and they are destroying the Health care system. And isn't it interesting that the shining champion of justice isn't going to be carrying his home state?

	28-09-2004 08:42									#68
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quote: That doesn't mean there shouldn't be caps on pain and suffering.

It depends. How do you determine the true loss of cutting the wrong leg off.

And the states that have gone to caps have seen their malpractice insurance rise higher than those that haven't.

quote: I'm pretty sure if we went and looked at these cases that were filed, you wouldn't find people's legs getting cut off when they're not supposed to.

Uh huh. That's why hospitals have had to start putting "Don't cut" on limbs not to be cut off during surgery? These cases aren't few and far between, and unfortunetly the propaganda media has propogated the myth that they are. They happen daily and doctors are not brought to task for it by internal review. Lawsuits are the only things that makes them pay for the wrongs they have done.

More people die of medical malpractice per year than car accidents, breast cancer, or AIDS.

	28-09-2004 08:45									#69
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http://www.consumerlaw.com/medical.html

quote: Approximately 80,000 people die in the United States each year due partly to medical malpractice (based on an extensive study entitled "Patients, Doctors and Lawyers: Medical Injury, Malpractice Litigation, and Patient Compensation in New York," published by the Harvard Medical Practice Study in 1990, a report to the State of New York). These statistics have since been confirmed by other studies performed in California and New Jersey. Meanwhile, a RAND Corporation Study regarding health care quality by Mark A. Schuster, M.D., Ph.D., Elizabeth A. McGlynn, Ph.D, and Robert H. Brook, M.D., Sc.D. revealed that autopsy studies showed rates between 35 and 40% of missed diagnoses with most resulting in death. Numerically, this is more than three fully loaded jumbo jets crashing every week with no survivors.

quote: Even more disturbing, these numbers are only based on hospital statistics. They do not include deaths from missed diagnoses or medical negligence that occurred in clinics, private doctors' offices, or other treatment facilities.

	28-09-2004 08:50									#70
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Considering how many people get treatment every year that is a very low number. And lets look at where those are occuring and in what kind of establishments. Is this your private little practice in the local strip mall or is this in a well established hopsital? For that matter these numbers don't really show anything other than that malpractice does occur. I would rather see a study of what most malpractice suits are based on and somehow I think that would take far more indepth study and a simple cut and paste job.

	28-09-2004 08:51									#71
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quote: Is this your private little practice in the local strip mall

Reading would help:

quote: These numbers are only based on hospital statistics. They do not include deaths from missed diagnoses or medical negligence that occurred in clinics, private doctors' offices, or other treatment facilities.

	28-09-2004 08:55									#72
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I did read that but it's getting late and I'm focusing on other things. But the fact still remains, these lawsuits that are supposedly being filed to fight the evil doctors, what are they based on? How many of them are filed because they cut off the wrong leg? I'd be willing to bet most of them are filed just to make money. And the "writing do not cut" on leg thing wasn't started because of a lawsuit. They actually usually paint the leg that is supposed to be cut off.

	28-09-2004 08:58									#73
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And you don't think that is because of a lawsuit? Do you think doctors are that dumb then?

	28-09-2004 09:00									#74
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quote: And the states that have gone to caps have seen their malpractice insurance rise higher than those that haven't.

I would assume that the reasons they applied caps where the same reasons the malpractice insurance was rising. Meaning that the problem is more prevalent in the states that have instituted caps, than in the states that have less need to and haven't.

	28-09-2004 09:09									#75
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Still doesn't make sense why the insurance rose AFTER caps, if the high cost of awards was the problem.

	28-09-2004 09:14									#76
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Do you have a link to the study or what journal it was in. I'd have to look at the study to make an informed response.

quote: Still doesn't make sense why the insurance rose AFTER caps, if the high cost of awards was the problem.

Well what it could indicate is that those states have more malpractice suits (/per capita) and that's all. The rates could have risen even greater if there had been no caps.

	28-09-2004 09:26									#77
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http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/hea...s/fs003013.php3

That's a link to California's experience, concluding that insurance regulation and not malpractice reform is the way to go.

	28-09-2004 09:29									#78
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California...I'm not sure that is a state that can really be used in a study. The People's Republic of California is well known for its Attorneys. The caps don't determine how many lawsuits can be filed, just the maximum amount you can make. Now it all comes out. I don't find it odd at all that the lawsuits are continuing to rise in a place like california and if you regulate insurance they aren't going to be able to make a profit since they'll be paying out more than they take in.

	28-09-2004 09:41									#79
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Um... caps under $1 million will definetly limit the number of suits. That's the award you need to come out even in the end, because of the high costs of discovery.

Basically supply and demand as well. If you cap something (whether it be awards or rent) the supply falls. Thus, the amount of suits must fall under basic economic principles. Something which I'm afraid you are not aware of.

	28-09-2004 09:41									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight California...I'm not sure that is a state that can really be used in a study. The People's Republic of California is well known for its Attorneys. The caps don't determine how many lawsuits can be filed, just the maximum amount you can make. Now it all comes out. I don't find it odd at all that the lawsuits are continuing to rise in a place like california and if you regulate insurance they aren't going to be able to make a profit since they'll be paying out more than they take in.

We test drive all the laws the rest of you people will eventually adopt.

Represent.

	28-09-2004 09:47									#81
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I do like prop 103. I actually read it.

But the study didn't make any attempt to isolate other factors Plus the graphs weren't available.

	28-09-2004 09:49									#82
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Prop 103

	28-09-2004 12:06									#83
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California
Berkeley

	28-09-2004 16:09									#84
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Pekka, if your mom got truly screwed over by her employers, can she speak with EEOC?

I honestly hope you guys will figure this mess out. Best of luck.

	28-09-2004 16:23									#85
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Settle down, Pekka. Just stop paying the bills and keep a record of her request to unsubscribe. What could they do then?

	28-09-2004 16:45									#86
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Barinthus, what is EEOC? Her employers is the church. They can **** you over and no one can do damn thing about it. THeir managment is totally independent from law and regulations, and if someone says something else, they through tantrums and are just impossible to deal with.

Chemical Ollie, well, that's what I'm doing already. I was just naive enough to think, that there would be a possibility to actually get some of that paid money back. I guess that's only possible in communist country like ours. +1 for communism.

well, it's still about 6 kazillion in the minus.

	28-09-2004 17:04									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Barinthus, what is EEOC? Her employers is the church. They can **** you over and no one can do damn thing about it. THeir managment is totally independent from law and regulations, and if someone says something else, they through tantrums and are just impossible to deal with. Chemical Ollie, well, that's what I'm doing already. I was just naive enough to think, that there would be a possibility to actually get some of that paid money back. I guess that's only possible in communist country like ours. +1 for communism. well, it's still about 6 kazillion in the minus.

If it is the Church,
it may be a good Idea to get some hints to the Newspapers/TV (of course without telling names) about the Church Management paying their employees low wages (after all I doubt that your mother is the only person there who gets paid too less)

Maybe if such practices get known to the Public they might think about cancelling them

	28-09-2004 17:08									#88
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In all fairness it's not like most churches are awash with cash.
Plus they pay you in spiritual currency as well

	28-09-2004 17:50									#89
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If i had an AOL account i would cancel it in protest of their treatment of Pekka's mum's case. But instead i'll just settle for advising people not to use AOL when they ask me which are the good ISP's to use(which happens on average about once a day). They can sue me at 333 childofthor street

whatever the legalities this situation does not seem right.

AOL
for really unhelpful/semi-criminal company practices.

	28-09-2004 18:36									#90
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Proteus, right, everyone in there already knows. Changes nothing. Well. That's another issue and I don't want to talk about it now it makes me furious. I need to level these AOL bastards first.

child of Thor, thanks for the support! You see! AOL is already suffering from their poor policies.