28-09-2004 08:28									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It's not redistributive. You aren't taxing one group more than another with the idea of that one group supporting another group.

	28-09-2004 08:28									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: 25% is not horrible, but I would like 20%.

I'd be willing to go higher but not lower

Shi et al:
You do realize that basically every flat tax proposal, has said that no taxes are paid on money below a certain threshold? Even the one Keys proposed in 2000.

	28-09-2004 08:29									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Why do you support any taxation at all ML. Isn't coercive taxation a fundamental breach of indivudual liberty.

	28-09-2004 08:29									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Flat tax blows chunks.

At least with National Sales tax there are progressive elements.

	28-09-2004 08:31									#35
	Tired of ads?

Taxation is a necessary evil unfortunately. While I don't think people's incomes should be taxed, it is necessary in this day and age. But it should at least be very low and alot of these taxes like the death tax need to be immediately repealed.

	28-09-2004 08:33									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard quote: 25% is not horrible, but I would like 20%. I'd be willing to go higher but not lower Shi et al: You do realize that basically every flat tax proposal, has said that no taxes are paid on money below a certain threshold? Even the one Keys proposed in 2000.

ML seemed to be advocating for a pure flat tax.

	28-09-2004 08:38									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight That thumbs up just inducted you into the Communist party. Wear the Russian flag proudly Ted...although judging by your scores they are less communist these days than you are.

My official position:

Competition is a good thing

HOWEVER, we do an extremely POOR job in the US of providing an environment for our underclass, and the CEOs just keep getting richer

A complete free market libertarian situation is very prone to situations going unchecked, such as the Great Depression when controls weren't in place to stop the madness (FDIC insurance, etc)

Sh1t happens to even the best of us, it's important to have an economic safety net

Free market going unchecked has led to a fast food society where everyone gets fat and sits in traffic jams for most of their lives.

	28-09-2004 08:41									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Less flat tax, more Ted Striker.

	28-09-2004 08:42									#39
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You look good in red Commrade Ted.

	28-09-2004 08:42									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You look good in a pickup truck with a gunrack

	28-09-2004 08:43									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Indeed. Many Right-Wing Conservatives are Christians. Some of them take their Christian responsibility to help their fellow man seriously.

Great! When the flat tax goes through, those right wing Conservative Christians will still be free to do so!

Before you start with the Jesus/Christian/help the poor argument, please remember that Jesus' message was not about coercion - he did not support forcing people to help others. His message was about love and compassion, true, but he believed that this should be voluntary. God doesn't force people to be good - he gave us free will, and Jesus' views and teachings were consistent with free will.

Now that we've disposed of that, if Bush were to get us a flat tax - say, 17%, along the lines of the Dick Armey plan - my estimation of him would go up considerably. I'd probably even vote for him.

	28-09-2004 08:43									#42
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by monkspider Less flat tax, more Ted Striker.

	28-09-2004 08:44									#43
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight You look good in red Commrade Ted.

No but lemme find some Commie chicks that look good in red, be back in a few...

	28-09-2004 08:44									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: But it should at least be very low and alot of these taxes like the death tax need to be immediately repealed.

And the capital gains tax.

	28-09-2004 08:45									#45
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Competition is a good thing

Ted described a position quite like mine, and I'm a communist.

Not all us reds think that the socialist society could feasibly be established tomorrow, even though we do think it is inevitable.

	28-09-2004 08:46									#46
	Increase Your PM Length

I don't think god or christianity has anything to do with the right. I happen to be a complete atheist.

	28-09-2004 08:46									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree, I was countering Imran's strawman.

	28-09-2004 08:48									#48
	Got spare money?

quote: I don't think god or christianity has anything to do with the right.

Of course it does. Conservatism is about tradition. You don't get more tradition than religion.

	28-09-2004 08:50									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Conservatism is about tradition. You don't get more tradition than religion.

Fine, show me in the Bible where Jesus or God supports laws forcing us to help the less fortunate.

You can't, of course.

	28-09-2004 08:52									#50
	Get a bigger avatar today!

And there Imran you are wrong. The dictionary definition of conservatism is that yes, but dictionary terms don't apply to the US political system. If that were true Bush wouldn't be pushing a flat tax and we never would have gone to Iraq. So if you want to apply historical terms then Bush is actually a liberal...and that doesn't make alot of sense now does it?

	28-09-2004 08:54									#51
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You do realize the Bible supports slavery? You know, slaves be obedient to your masters and all that... does any Christian today believe that?

Throughout history, Christian Rulars have been the ones to pass laws requiring people pay to the church, partly to help the less fortunate. That was the tradition.

	28-09-2004 08:55									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I look terrible in red but these hot Commie mail order bride chicks look alot better:

Ekaterina


Natalia


Indira

	28-09-2004 08:57									#53
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: The dictionary definition of conservatism is that yes, but dictionary terms don't apply to the US political system.

What the Hell do you think you are trying to 'conserve' then? The environment?

Read Edmund Burke, William Bennett, George Will, etc., and then come back to me and tell me what conservatism is.

quote: If that were true Bush wouldn't be pushing a flat tax and we never would have gone to Iraq. So if you want to apply historical terms then Bush is actually a liberal

Plenty of people see Bush as a free spending liberal, but that's beside the point. I fail to see how such a deeply religious man that lets his religion guide his hand in policy can be called a liberal. Historically, liberals have been the free market types. That changed with the Depression and FDR.

A flat tax is regressive, so it'd be reactionary (ie, on the conservative side). The war in Iraq? Depending on what it was actually for, it could be liberal or conservative.

	28-09-2004 08:58									#54
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Throughout history, Christian Rulars have been the ones to pass laws requiring people pay to the church, partly to help the less fortunate. That was the tradition.

Actually it was used to fund an empire. But that was a nice look at history through rose colored glasses, I enjoyed it.

	28-09-2004 08:58									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: You do realize the Bible supports slavery? You know, slaves be obedient to your masters and all that... does any Christian today believe that?

Well, you're the one who implied that the Bible should be the basis for tax laws. Don't blame me if you don't like everything the Bible supports

quote: Throughout history, Christian Rulars have been the ones to pass laws requiring people pay to the church, partly to help the less fortunate.

"Christian" rulers also started the Crusades and the 30 Years War, for starters. "Christians" were responsible for the Inquisition.

So, either you don't believe our laws should be based on the Bible, in which case your original statement is just a silly strawman, you do believe our laws should be based on the Bible, in which case the duel question arises of why you don't support slavery, which is somewhat sanctioned in various parts, but do support a progressive tax system, which is not sanctioned, OR you believe that some Biblical principles should be embodied in law, and some shouldn't be, and that we should make those choices along the lines of "Christian" rulers throughout history.

Three equally unpalatable choices, I would think - so which is it?

	28-09-2004 09:02									#56
	Tired of ads?

quote: either you don't believe our laws should be based on the Bible, in which case your original statement is just a silly strawman

Why would it be a silly strawman? The Governor of Alabama says Christian principles compels him to raise taxes on the rich to help the poor. Most Churches today plead with the state to help the poor. How is there equal free will in order to adequately be judged by God?

It seems to me when so many Christians around the world want the state to take care of the less fortunate, and the Church has been doing it for centuries, that is probably the better interpretation.

And if you consider yourself a Christian, you should probably follow that example. After all, centuries of Christianity have spoken.

People don't follow the Bible to the letter, because of its prescription of things like slavery, making women slaves (basically), etc. They follow the slow evolution of Christianity, which is what Christianity really is today. The Christianity of the literal Bible is an anachronism.

	28-09-2004 09:03									#57
	Tired of ads?

quote: Plenty of people see Bush as a free spending liberal, but that's beside the point. I fail to see how such a deeply religious man that lets his religion guide his hand in policy can be called a liberal. Historically, liberals have been the free market types. That changed with the Depression and FDR. A flat tax is regressive, so it'd be reactionary (ie, on the conservative side). The war in Iraq? Depending on what it was actually for, it could be liberal or conservative.

We are trying to conserve the US and keep it from becoming endangered. Based on your definition that conservatism is keeping with tradition then Iraq can be seen as none other than liberalism. And since the progressive tax system has been in place now a very long time changing it to the flat tax system (while it has been used before) would be considered liberal since it is still changing the status quo. Hell we could change the tax system every year and call it anarchy. These terms really don't apply to the US political system anymore.

	28-09-2004 09:05									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Why would it be a silly strawman? The Governor of Alabama says Christian principles compels him to raise taxes on the rich to help the poor. Most Churches today plead with the state to help the poor. How is there equal free will in order to adequately be judged by God? It seems to me when so many Christians around the world want the state to take care of the less fortunate, and the Church has been doing it for centuries, that is probably the better interpretation. And if you consider yourself a Christian, you should probably follow that example. After all, centuries of Christianity have spoken.

A look at history will show that the church didn't take care of the poor.

	28-09-2004 09:08									#59
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: We are trying to conserve the US and keep it from becoming endangered

Conserve what? What the US is? What it should be? The traditional notions of America? I think I've hit on it.

quote: And since the progressive tax system has been in place now a very long time changing it to the flat tax system (while it has been used before) would be considered liberal since it is still changing the status quo.

Um... a change backwards has been called reactionary for a long, long, long time.

quote: A look at history will show that the church didn't take care of the poor.

Of course it did. The poor were treated much better by the Church than before. For the first time they weren't treated like vermin.

	28-09-2004 09:09									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Dick Armeys Flat Tax
My Flat Tax
Ted Striker and his ladies
The rest of the discussion