05-10-2004 07:54									#151
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark its not that simple. There was heavy London migration to all the middle colonies, from Pennsylvania to Virginia. There is (IIUC) a common loss of post vocal r in the Boston, New York and New Orleans accents, common to the great seaports AND to Britain, but not to the interior of the US at least - this last attributed to contact between the seaports and Britain. The US has a whole range of submigrations, etc, so that even the eastern US dialect map is not simply a derivative of the UK. Once you get west, the eastern dialects mix and change. Another complication - the London migration to the middle colonies was NOT native londoners only - London was itself a labor market for most of England, and the indentees from London came from all over England.

I know, what I posted was just a basic guideline. The London influence was heavy on all the colonies.

But as far as the dropped 'r', or non-rhotic speech, thats probably the most striking lingustic divide in North American, particularly the United States. The only areas that are non-rhotic in North America are New England, New York City, the "Old" South (Virginia, Georgia, etc...) and southern Nova Scotia (believe it or not, they sound alot like Bostonians). The rest all pronounce the 'r'. I think globally this is the most prominent divide among accents in English as well. You could lump them all into one or the other and each group would have alot of shared traits.

Albert Speer: If there's a similarity between New York and Philly Italians, I don't hear it. I don't think Boston Italians and NYC italians sound alike either... and I'm Italian.

	05-10-2004 08:15									#152
	Increase Your PM Length

Well he bases that assertion on the fact that "Rocky" sounds like NY Italians, seeing how Stallon is frpm NY, it doesn't prove anything .

	05-10-2004 08:22									#153
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

no i dont base my assertion on tha fact that Rocky sounds like NY Italians... Rocky (i thought) was just the most known example of Philly Italian speech. trust me, plenty of Italians (and even non-italians) in philly sound like how Stallone sounds in Rocky (or that one guy in Band of Brothers, etc.). Stallone being from NYC only proves my point further.

	05-10-2004 08:28									#154
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You do realize that Stallone has a speech impediment as well? Are you saying that all Philly italians sound like they have a speech impediment? Besides, I bet a lot of people in Philly TRY to sound like Stallone because of Rocky, but they don't put it off and you can tell they are faking it.

If you want real New York though, try Al Pacino, Rober DeNiro, James Caan, Edie Falco, Dominic Chianese, Steve Buscemi, Michael Rapaport.

You want a Philly Italian? Listen to Adam Carolla or Dom Irrera.

Sorry dude, but Philly Italians don't sound like New York Italians who don't sound like New Jersey Italians (like James Gandolfini).

	05-10-2004 08:31									#155
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

what the hell? Imran, do you get some kind of high out of argueing with me over an incredibly unimportant and very subtle issue? NY Italians, NJ italians, philly italians... i'm sure italians in brooklyn sound way different than italians from queens... come on now... the general idea is that Italians in the tri-state area of NY, NJ, and Philly have roughly the same dialect, subtle nuances excluded.

	05-10-2004 08:34									#156
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: the general idea is that Italians in the tri-state area of NY, NJ, and Philly have roughly the same dialect

No, they don't . You say that in NY and they'll kick your ass for saying **** like that.

Btw, the 'subtle nuances' are an integral part of dialect. And yeah, Queens is different from Brooklyn. Hell, sometimes they ain't even the same language .

	05-10-2004 08:36									#157
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: You say that in NY and they'll kick your ass for saying **** like that.

yeah sure... like they'll give a damn...

	05-10-2004 08:39									#158
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You obviously don't know New York.

	05-10-2004 08:41									#159
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

LOTM seems pretty much spot-on with his posts.

People in Europe living a mere 100km from each other can barely understand other dialects... this is especially true with Germanic languages, like different forms of Dutch and German.

Not that this is in any way scientific, but I guess that a fair indication of the uniformity of a language can be deduced through the witness of those who don't speak it as a first language. And to tell the honest truth, the variations in American English, to someone like me, are really easier to understand than those of the British Isles.

	05-10-2004 08:45									#160
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well in Albert's defense, there are similarities between most Italians from Italian neighborhoods in America, I guess Imran and I just hear the differences alot more.

quote: And to tell the honest truth, the variations in American English, to someone like me, are really easier to understand than those of the British Isles.

Maybe because you're American? At least I assume you are.. if not, it might be due to the fact that Americans speak, in general, alot slower than those in the UK. But intelligibility doesn't preclude variability.

	05-10-2004 08:47									#161
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That American flag is sarcastic I'm from Quebec, so indeed I might be biased by the general North American taint.

	05-10-2004 08:49									#162
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I guess Imran and I just hear the differences alot more.

Perhaps, but it is hard not to realize them in Jersey . I can tell if someone is from Jersey City, Bayonne, Bronx, Queens just from hearing them speak.

	05-10-2004 09:33									#163
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris That American flag is sarcastic I'm from Quebec, so indeed I might be biased by the general North American taint.

Oh, a Canadian. That explains you being so down on North America. Ah, Canadian self loathing....

quote: Perhaps, but it is hard not to realize them in Jersey . I can tell if someone is from Jersey City, Bayonne, Bronx, Queens just from hearing them speak.

I know, I was just giving him a break.

But that brings up another thing. I hadn't even considered the individual immigrant group accents that vary from city to city independently of the "native" accent of the region. That adds alot to the lingustic diversity of the continent.. certainly its more prevalent here than in Europe.

	05-10-2004 18:30									#164
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I guess Imran and I just hear the differences alot more. Perhaps, but it is hard not to realize them in Jersey . I can tell if someone is from Jersey City, Bayonne, Bronx, Queens just from hearing them speak.

Hmm. Well my dad did pride himself on being able to guess roughly where in Jersey someone was from, based on the relative amounts of NYC and Philly in their speech patterns. But one outer borough of NYC versus another? Even i have difficulty doing that - the local distinctions if any are very subtle, and the class and ethnic difference are far stronger, I think.

While born and raised in (non-yuppie) Brooklyn, when i left town to go to college, it was usually assumed by people i met that I was from Manhattan. I dont think that was all the effect of 3 years at Stuyvesant, but the effect of both my fathers philly accent and a general wordliness that softened my ny accent considerably, giving me more of a Manhattan sound.

	06-10-2004 04:21									#165
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Starchild It's the rest of East Anglia that's full of inbred farmers.

how inbred are they? I know you anglosaxons have a much detailed range of inbred nuances.

	06-10-2004 04:22									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

you know just like the more important something is for a society, the more words exist in their langauge to describe it