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Lefty Scaevola is offline Lefty Scaevola
Emperor
San Antonio TX USA
Oct 2000
time: 23:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 20:03
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By the way, I am all in favor of coutries other than the USA eneacting the protocol.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
By the way, I am all in favor of coutries other than the USA eneacting the protocol.


Whoha is offline Whoha
King
The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 20:10
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http://techcentralstation.com/100104I.html

quote:
"Late this week -- for the fourth time in recent memory -- major press outlets trumpeted that, as Bloomberg News put it, "Russia Approves Kyoto Protocol". The stories claimed Russia would be ratifying the global treaty designed to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, thus ensuring enough participant countries for the treaty to enter into effect. None of the major outlets explicitly noted the irony of having reported this purported breakthrough on several prior occasions -- although one curious Reuters headline hinted at the media's earlier errors: "Kyoto Saved Again".


What's behind the latest outburst of "news"? Russian officials cleverly continue to engineer a campaign to obtain from the European Union certain concessions and understandings. Russia appears driven to tell the EU what it wants to hear on Kyoto, in order to avert problems with Brussels over other matters, including Russia's response to Beslan and other terrorist attacks. Until recently, trade-off negotiations with the EU centered on Russia's desire for membership in the World Trade Organization (WTO).



The greatest insight into what Russia might ultimately decide can be found in the comments of Andrei Illarionov, President Putin's chief economic adviser. A vocal Kyoto critic, he has likened Kyoto's restrictions on energy use to economic warfare against Russia, and the failed Soviet central planning scheme Gosplan. His money quote: "It's a gesture toward the European Union, nothing more." Illarionov reaffirmed the skepticism of Russian leadership toward its future in Kyoto this week saying:



"Nobody among Russian officials believes the protocol is good for Russia. Nobody sees any sense in the economic nature of this document. Nobody sees any scientific relevance in this document. Nobody sees any advantages for Russia in this document. It is just purely politics."



Whatever may have occurred this week, Duma officials confirmed that any real action on Kyoto would still only occur at or toward the end of the year -- if at all. Indeed, that is precisely what has been expected since Russia put off its decision on final acceptance until after the next Kyoto negotiation which will take place in December, in Buenos Aires.



Meanwhile, Russia will continue to play the EU for concessions. Once it has obtained what it sees as the maximum in concessions from Europe -- including non-interference in its handling of terrorism -- Russia might actually ratify. But even this is by no means certain (as even pressure group Greenpeace seemed to acknowledge in its press release this week).



But what happens if Russia does ratify? First it will sell Europe all of the "credits" it has toward tons of carbon dioxide. Russia holds these credits after it maneuvered under the Kyoto talks to include consideration of its massive forestland as carbon "sinks" (what's more, Russia's post-Cold War economic collapse -- and subsequent precipitous decline in energy use -- timed nicely with Kyoto's emissions baseline, giving it further credits under the scheme).



Once those credits are sold, and Russia must begin worrying about its own greenhouse gas emissions, Russian officials could then provide notice that it will withdraw from the treaty. After all, many prominent Russian scientists have expressed significant skepticism over the alarmist science undergirding Kyoto's mandated greenhouse gas restrictions. Under Kyoto, withdrawal requires a three year window, which is ample time for Russia to again bring the EU to the trough for further subsidies and trade concessions.



This week's news revealed no change in any country's Kyoto status, but further recognition that the press loves a good story. So mush so that they will run it every few months."

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 20:17 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
By the way, I am all in favor of coutries other than the USA eneacting the protocol.


alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 20:22
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And then you all wonder why the rest of the world isn't swayed by the US's charm...
But hey, have fun in the 20th century ( or earlier, depending on the elections)

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 20:23
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I think the treaty is fundamentally flawed in a number of respect regardless of how you feel about global warming. Leaving half the world's population permanently out of the requirements of the treaty is more than fundamentally flawed. It is outrageously unacceptable.

Further, the treaty should not enter into force if any country has not ratified it due to its nature and call for sacrifice. It should be unanimous.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 22:08
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quote:
Originally posted by alva
And then you all wonder why the rest of the world isn't swayed by the US's charm...
But hey, have fun in the 20th century ( or earlier, depending on the elections)


20th century

Being Downwind of 20th century

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 22:25
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Environment

"Economic Boom" translation... lots of corporations will lose out. Good riddens to bad rubbish.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 22:34
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Why have the Ozzies been dragging their heels on this?

Buck Birdseed is offline Buck Birdseed
Emperor
Khoon Ki Pyasi Dayan (1988)
Nov 2000
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 22:47 Visit Buck Birdseed's homepage!
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Coz John Howard is a triple-A-grade cowboy bastard?

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 22:49
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Britain's economy has grown by over 30% since 1990. And we're on target for Kyoto.

All this 'economic catastrophe' stuff is nothing but a pack of lies.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 22:51 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
Why have the Ozzies been dragging their heels on this?


I thought that the Ozzies had rejected it outright.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 22:55
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What does on have to do to send a clear no to PH? Beat him within an inch of his life with a 2x4?

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
Warlord
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 22:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
Britain's economy has grown by over 30% since 1990. And we're on target for Kyoto.

All this 'economic catastrophe' stuff is nothing but a pack of lies.


Yup. When corporations are pressured to achieve lower pollution they end up implementing more efficient, cost-saving technology.

Americans are complacent and they'll fall behind.

Last edited by Tingkai on 01-10-2004 at 23:09

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:00 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
What does on have to do to send a clear no to PH? Beat him within an inch of his life with a 2x4?


Apparently, PH is not alone. Searching Google News, it looks like it is a common delusion in Europe that Australia would suddenly do an about face, now that Russia has decided to ratify. I'm not sure that there's a rationale behind this delusion, so it would be impossible to reason with these folks.

alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:00
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quote:
Americans are complacent and they'll fall behind.


It' s how empires come to an end.

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:09
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quote:
Apparently, PH is not alone. Searching Google News, it looks like it is a common delusion in Europe that Australia would suddenly do an about face, now that Russia has decided to ratify. I'm not sure that there's a rationale behind this delusion, so it would be impossible to reason with these folks.


Let's have some links to support your claim that 'there's a common delusion in Europe' with regards to Australia's Kyoto intentions.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Apparently, PH is not alone.
I'm not sure that I'd go that far. He seems to be the lone loon that thinks rejecting a treaty is dragging your feet on it. The rest of Europe seems to be under a defferent delusion. One that states the news out of Russia (the 4th time this has happened apparently) puts some special pressure on them to change thier stance.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
Warlord
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by alva
quote:
Americans are complacent and they'll fall behind.


It' s how empires come to an end.


Yeah, I think the US reached its zeneith between 1989 and 2000.

After winning the Cold War, the US was able to create a coalition to fight Iraq. On the economic front, the US was at the forefront in the 1990s.

What's the situation now? The greenback is weak and being is no longer seen as the international anchor currency. The US economy is struggling, but for most of the world, this doesn't really matter. Europe and East Asia are doing quite fine, thank you, regardless of what happens in the US. The US military has largely been neutered. If it can't control Iraq then it doesn't pose much a threat to anyone else. Look at Venezuala. It has thumbed its nose at the US.

Superpower? What superpower?

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:24
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Given Australia has a CO2 per capita emission comparable to the US and Canada, the fact that Australia ain't gonna sign ain't a surprise.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:25
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I think you mean the DPRK and not Venezuela.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
What does on have to do to send a clear no to PH? Beat him within an inch of his life with a 2x4?


Still doesn't make their decision any more legitimate than before does it?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:28
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It's completely legitimate what with them being a sovereign nation with the power to ratify and reject treaties.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:29
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The Queen can still whip Oz into line.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:22
  Old Post 01-10-2004 23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
It's completely legitimate what with them being a sovereign nation with the power to ratify and reject treaties.


No, you still don't understand. They can make the decision, it still doesn't make it the right one...

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
Prince
Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 02-10-2004 00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
I think the treaty is fundamentally flawed in a number of respect regardless of how you feel about global warming. Leaving half the world's population permanently out of the requirements of the treaty is more than fundamentally flawed. It is outrageously unacceptable.


Yes, it is fundamentally flawed that countries with 1/10 the number of cars per inhabitant America has should not stop right now vital economic progress.

When each and every Chinese or Indian pollutes as much as the average American does, come back and complain. For now, as the richest country in the world, just shut the **** up and show the example.

Chemical Ollie is offline Chemical Ollie
Prince
Bored of this board
Jan 2002
time: 06:22
  Old Post 02-10-2004 01:31
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If USA signed the Kyoto Protocol, they would have to significantly change their energy consumption pattern, becoming less dependent on Middle East oil. Then they could pull out of the region and leave those lunatics to themselves, and significantly decrease the terrorist problem.

If the tax money spent on the recent wars was instead spent on the construction of nuclear power plants and research into alternative vehicle fuels, you would probably be better off today.

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
  Old Post 02-10-2004 01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by alva
quote:
Americans are complacent and they'll fall behind.


It' s how empires come to an end.


I'll throw a little party when we throw our colonies away too.


empire

imperialism

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 02-10-2004 02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by alva
You've got to start somewhere Asher.


You want to start with a countries signing treaties that they will subsequently ignore and violate in countless ways?

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:22
  Old Post 02-10-2004 02:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Oncle Boris


Yes, it is fundamentally flawed that countries with 1/10 the number of cars per inhabitant America has should not stop right now vital economic progress.

When each and every Chinese or Indian pollutes as much as the average American does, come back and complain. For now, as the richest country in the world, just shut the **** up and show the example.


Since when has economics mattered a whoot to an enviromentalist?

 
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