02-10-2004 02:28									#61
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie If USA signed the Kyoto Protocol, they would have to significantly change their energy consumption pattern, becoming less dependent on Middle East oil. Then they could pull out of the region and leave those lunatics to themselves, and significantly decrease the terrorist problem. If the tax money spent on the recent wars was instead spent on the construction of nuclear power plants and research into alternative vehicle fuels, you would probably be better off today.

Clearly the enviromentalists have a political agenda as well.

	02-10-2004 02:29									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Sava Environment "Economic Boom" translation... lots of corporations will lose out. Good riddens to bad rubbish.

Marx would be proud of your anti-corporation extremism.

	02-10-2004 02:40									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Since when has economics mattered a whoot to an enviromentalist?

Because it increases economic efficiency by +2 and improves ecological harmony by +2, possibly boosting revenues from the Manifold Harmonics?

The -2 growth rate can be neutralised by implenting a democratic government, with a small penalty of having -2 support.

Oh wait, the United States is a police state, so it doesn't work that much, although they negate each other's efficiency bonuses. And of course the US would want all the military support it needs to send out troops in an hostile environment even without Congress declaring war.

	02-10-2004 02:48									#64
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ned Since when has economics mattered a whoot to an enviromentalist?

I don't remember ever defending a strong pro-environment position here... I guess that you allowed yourself to put these words in my mouth because I'm a godless antisemitic commie anyway...

So the question remains: shouldn't those who have achieved wealth and productivity dedicate their ressources towards increasing environmental efficiency? If the others don't want to follow suit, well, too bad, but they've certainly got a case if they argue about the fact that in theory they should have the "right" to pollute as much as the Westerners do, per capita.

Anyway, a sound environmental policy can stimulate entrepreneurship and R&D in new fields, whereas America's current policy is clearly forged on a reactionary partnership with the aging oil conglomerates.

	02-10-2004 03:28									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf quote: Since when has economics mattered a whoot to an enviromentalist? Because it increases economic efficiency by +2 and improves ecological harmony by +2, possibly boosting revenues from the Manifold Harmonics? The -2 growth rate can be neutralised by implenting a democratic government, with a small penalty of having -2 support. Oh wait, the United States is a police state, so it doesn't work that much, although they negate each other's efficiency bonuses. And of course the US would want all the military support it needs to send out troops in an hostile environment even without Congress declaring war.

Natal, at least we share a love of the same game. I think I start another on in a few minutes.

	02-10-2004 03:32									#66
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Oncle B, there are some here who wistfully believe that enviromental regulations impose no economic hardship. They are wrong of course.

The major draw of China today is that they permit manufacturing at low cost - a major component of this is the lack of environmental controls. Leaving China out of Kyoto will only result in increasing the move of manufacturing out of North America and Europe to Asia.

In the US, a current hot topic is "outsourcing." One cannot seriously oppose outsourcing and support more manufacturing jobs in the US and at the same time support Kyoto. The two are at strong tension.

	02-10-2004 03:49									#67
	Increase Your PM Length

Indeed, Kyoto is probably, from a geopolitic point of view, a mistake. Though it could be possible that Europe eventually gets past America with their efforts towards a greener economy.

EDIT:

I think you should also make a distinction between Kyoto and environmental regulations... even if you ratify Kyoto, there are so many other regulations absent in China that it wouldn't have much effect on outsourcing.

	23-10-2004 21:33									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola EEEEH! FACT CHECK! "Russia's move toward ratifying the Kyoto Protocol " It is not ratified until the Russian parliment approves it. The duma has previosuly passed a resolution against it. It is not a done deal yet, and will likely take more large gifts from teh EU to get it through.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996569

	23-10-2004 21:43									#69
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ned Still, Poland can cheat because no one will notice and see Russia fall into total ruin complying with Kyoto.

Ned you didn't read the article I posted eariler here. The Russians are in all likelyhood playing lip service to Kyoto,they have a great deal of "credits" on pollution because of 1990 being used as a base line, and for other factors, that they can then sell to Europe. Then they can duck out.

	23-10-2004 22:29									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ned Good. Now, please, raise the price of gas in all Kyoto countries by double, nay triple, so that China, India and the US can have more of this dwindling critical resource. No, seriously, now that the treaty is in force, Kyoto countries will be shooting themselves in the economic foot if they even try to comply.

Relying on hydro and wind power instead of coal = economic catastrophe
Financing research on alternative energy sources = economic catastrophe
Developing a new expertise in a 21st century-critical domain = economic catastrophe
Relying on a century old stigmatized oil cartel, with their dick stuck far into old political falcons = economic boom

Nedaverse

	23-10-2004 23:10									#71
	Got spare money?

quote: The protocol also foresees emission credits for forests that soak up carbon.

I heard that this idea was cooked up by the US as a condition that would need to be meet before we could even consider joining. The US contains far far more forests then western Europe (but less the Russia I belive) and depending on how the math is done the US could actuly be SELLING!! the Carbon Credits.

Ofcorse the whole idea is crap, a healty forest as is everything in nature in a state of balance neither gaining or lossing Carbon. Only when un-natural Fire suppression is aplied to a forest will it "soak up" Carbon. But like daming a river the build up can not be contained and has erupted into progressivly more damaging forest fires each fire season. Ofcorse THAT carbon won't count will it because its "natural". Plainly a have your cake and eat it too strategy which would actualy encourage the continued unhealthy over-managment of forests that got us here in the first place.

I should know the forested crown of the Catalina Mountains just North of Tucson were nearly completly burned down less then a year ago, you could see the fireline on the mountains flanks at night. The "Shrub" came and made the gauling acusation that Environmentalists were blocking efforsts to allow timber companies to thin forests for fire prevention (and they would do it for free as well). Anyone who knows anything about a forest knows that the underbrush that represents the fire hazard is of absolutly no economic value to a timber company, you cant get 2 by 4's from sticks, pine cones and dead leaves. A profit making timber company will want Big Fat Tall trees 100 years old, which guess what not the root cause of forest fires. Real thining is a time and money consuming endevour conducted by the national forest service which usaly involves controled burning. Now for the iceing on the cake, Shrub has been underfunding the national forest service for years as they begged for the funds to clear the mountain top.

The ability of Republicans to create a problem then blame liberals for the problem and propose more "get tough" measure that will guarantee the problem gets worse never seaces to amaze me.

	23-10-2004 23:53									#72
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf quote: Since when has economics mattered a whoot to an enviromentalist? Because it increases economic efficiency by +2 and improves ecological harmony by +2, possibly boosting revenues from the Manifold Harmonics? The -2 growth rate can be neutralised by implenting a democratic government, with a small penalty of having -2 support. Oh wait, the United States is a police state, so it doesn't work that much, although they negate each other's efficiency bonuses. And of course the US would want all the military support it needs to send out troops in an hostile environment even without Congress declaring war.

Singapore is far more of a police state than the US.

	24-10-2004 00:02									#73
	Suffering from ads?

Why should we take posts about why Kyoto sucks by people from a country that produces 36% of the total CO2 emissions seriously?

	24-10-2004 00:11									#74
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Because that's an ad hominem?

	24-10-2004 00:24									#75
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Okay, the New Scientist article Dauphin posted said we produce 25%, you say 36%, would you guys like to get together and figure out what the number is before you toss it in our faces?

	24-10-2004 00:26									#76
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oh, and you don't have to take our posts seriously, but we reserve the same priviledge re: Kyoto.

	24-10-2004 00:53									#77
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Okay, the New Scientist article Dauphin posted said we produce 25%, you say 36%, would you guys like to get together and figure out what the number is before you toss it in our faces?

Its entirely possible its a 'displacement one key right' typo on Hueij's part.

	24-10-2004 02:09									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

From the opening post:

quote: However, the United States — which alone accounted for 36 percent of carbon dioxide emissions in 1990 — and Australia have rejected the treaty.

There are some people who actually read threads you know...

	24-10-2004 03:14									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You are exonerated. The opening post is wrong, its 36% of industrialised nations output. Its closer to 25% of all nations output.

Numbers will have changed marginally over 13-14 years.

	24-10-2004 03:46									#80
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Dauphin You are exonerated. The opening post is wrong, its 36% of industrialised nations output. Its closer to 25% of all nations output. Numbers will have changed marginally over 13-14 years.

Exonerated? What does that mean?

Anyways, even 25% is absurd. ****ing up the planet and refusing to take responsability. The only good thing is that I'm old enough so that I won't be here when the **** hits the fan...

	24-10-2004 05:04									#81
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Hueij Exonerated? What does that mean?

Free from blame or fault.

	24-10-2004 05:16									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Hueij Exonerated? What does that mean? Anyways, even 25% is absurd. ****ing up the planet and refusing to take responsability. The only good thing is that I'm old enough so that I won't be here when the **** hits the fan...

25% is also about the same as our percent of the world GDP

	24-10-2004 05:31									#83
	Tired of ads?

And both are far higher than your percentage of world population. Time to start sharing a little more, methinks.

	24-10-2004 15:37									#84
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If you want to do it per capita then the US is only better than the Saudis, Kuwait, a few other small Middle Eastern nations (UAE, Bahrain kind of places) and if memory serves Luxembourg.

	24-10-2004 23:39									#85
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: And both are far higher than your percentage of world population. Time to start sharing a little more, methinks.

Hey, there's a simple road to prosperity - freedom. Want to have a prosperous nation? Follow the US's historic example.

	25-10-2004 17:47									#86
	Put an end to popups!

With forest fires factored in, do forests operate as a net CO2 sink?

Are volcanoes factored in as CO2 sources in Kyoto?

Are grass and forest fires counted for Kyoto purposes?

	25-10-2004 18:25									#87
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Now we are waiting for USA Clinton said no in a humble way, Bush said no in an arrogant way, what is Kerry's stance?

Kyoto is a bad deal and I doubt the US would be willing to sign unless all the countries, including third world countries, would sign. Other wise this will just move manufacturing jobs from an emmissions capped nation to a nonemmissions capped nation.

	25-10-2004 18:29									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Hueij Anyways, even 25% is absurd. ****ing up the planet and refusing to take responsability. The only good thing is that I'm old enough so that I won't be here when the **** hits the fan...

Oh, get off of your high horse. It's not like Kyoto will decrease global emmissions by one bit though it will move the problem from one country to another. I for one want to keep manufacturing jobs in my country until a truly global solution can be found.

	25-10-2004 18:54									#89
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oerdin, If I understand it correctly, doing things to expand forests or control forest or grass fires gets no credit in Kyoto because they are not counted in the first place. Brazil would be the world's largest polluter if forest fires counted.

	25-10-2004 18:58									#90
	Put an end to popups!

Brazil and Indonesia both have huge seasonal forest fires which produce massive amounts of CO2 and smog causing particulates. Also countries like China have official satistics which are very low but very inaccurate. A real scientific study of pollution output would likely double China's share of global CO2 output.