10-10-2004 16:12									#421
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat This whole argument is just a regurgitation of your drivel that only labor creates values, and that one has been refuted time and again. Apparently, in the Kidiverse, gold and horseshit have the same intrinsic value.

I know that I can never get the time it took to read this horseshit back. In a way that time has value, although no goods and services were created.

	10-10-2004 16:18									#422
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Ok your not the only one. But are you gonna try to change it or are you accepting it, nay fueling it by working within this system? Also, I'm sure some people believe like you do (hell I pretty much, well not in the rest just that post that your quoting ) but the system works and they realise this and am willing to operate within it.

Guns work too. Well that depends on your prespective, doesn't it.

	10-10-2004 17:40									#423
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kid - lemme put it this way -

percieved value = pv
desirability = d
objective value(or the cost of production) = ov
work put in = w
price you have to pay to purchase( final cost price) = c

The equation becomes :

pv = ((ov + w)*d)/c .

This is how perception creates value , because desirability is subjective/perception based . Thus , as desirability goes down to zero , the value also goes down . This is also why freebies are so attractive - the percieved value is infinite .

	10-10-2004 17:47									#424
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Analysing the above equation dimensionally , we come to the conclusions that work and objective value have the same dimensions , thus work does seemingly have an intrinsic objective monetary ( but not percieved ) value . Percieved value also has the same dimensions as desirability ( which somehow doesn't seem to make sense .

	10-10-2004 19:23									#425
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Kid - lemme put it this way - percieved value = pv desirability = d objective value(or the cost of production) = ov work put in = w price you have to pay to purchase( final cost price) = c The equation becomes : pv = ((ov + w)*d)/c .

We have to start with this equation. For the producer pv=w. For the consumer pv=d. So w=d. c and ov have nothing to do with it.

	10-10-2004 20:29									#426
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I know that I can never get the time it took to read this horseshit back. In a way that time has value, although no goods and services were created.

Well, I can see in your system why you think there's no time value of money.

In our system, we expect to invest money to increase value, and therefor increase revenues, profits, etc. over time. At least we have the opportunity to do that.

In your system, there's not one fundamental concept which isn't seriously flawed and totally skewed from reality. In your system, investing additional capital makes no difference, as the enterprise continues to fail and require outside subsidy until there is no more possibility of outside subsidy, then the enterprise contracts and ultimately fails. Thus all capital investment tends towards zero over time, and money has no time value, since it's all pissed away.

	10-10-2004 20:51									#427
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

MtG

	11-10-2004 01:30									#428
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That's the lamest, BS argument yet MtG.

	11-10-2004 01:33									#429
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In fact in the crowds I hang with that's nothing but talkin' trash.

	11-10-2004 01:47									#430
	Increase the size of your Attachments

OK i'll bite

Do you believe that time has no effect on the value of anything, or just money?

	11-10-2004 01:49									#431
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin OK i'll bite Do you believe that time has no effect on the value of anything, or just money?

I didn't say that time doesn't affect the value of money. I said that money doesn't create value.

	11-10-2004 01:51									#432
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

But the time value of money is about the effect of time ON money - not about money creating value

	11-10-2004 01:52									#433
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin But the time value of money is about the effect of time ON money - not about money creating value

That's what I've been trying to tell these fools.

	11-10-2004 01:55									#434
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No you just havn't been listening to the arguments (or at best just been at cross purposes)

	11-10-2004 01:58									#435
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin No you just havn't been listening to the arguments (or at best just been at cross purposes)

Obviously you haven't. Why don't you start with the first post?

This is freaking amazing. I though atleast one person had some intelligence.

	11-10-2004 02:04									#436
	Increase Your PM Length

I haven't read the thread, its too painful....so here is my reply to the first post that is obviously so intelligent no-one has been able to respond to it to Kid's exacting standards:

Money doesn't create or have inherent value, unless of course you use it, and when you use it effects how much it is valued at.

You are thus refuted.

	11-10-2004 02:06									#437
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Time value of money. The idea is complete crap
Remember posting that


So where are your arguments that say that time has no effect on the value of money or did you just get the thread title wrong?

	11-10-2004 02:10									#438
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin Time value of money. The idea is complete crap Remember posting that So where are your arguments that say that time has no effect on the value of money or did you just get the thread title wrong?

Put the whole post up and read the whole thread Rockhead.

Typical crap that goes on here. Jesus!

	11-10-2004 02:12									#439
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I haven't read the thread

Don't claim to even know what the hell people are talking about then. Let alone claim to refute them. Isn't that ******* obvious enough!

	11-10-2004 02:13									#440
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: True, the value of the one computer would be more because of the law of diminishing utility.

In other words, value would change based on something other than labor.

quote: What's false is that the price equals the value.

In a free market, price is a good measure of value. If the price is perceived as too high, then people will decide that their money is more valuable than the product. Remember, price references money, which also has a certain perceived value. If I need to make a decision to spend money, I have to decide whether the money or the good/service is more valuable.

quote: It doesn't in either case, simply because the price includes all kinds of fees that are not payments for creating that good. Interest on money is one of those fees.

And if that price goes too high, then people will decide that their money is more valuable than the product or service. Some people will disagree, and will be willing to pay a higher price, but if most people think the price is too high, then competition and the desires of the public will drive the price down.

The bottom line is that a product has absolutely no value when it's sitting on the shelf at the store. It only has value - to the consumer, the retailer, and the manufacturer - when someone decides to buy it.

These are all side points, though. You've already agreed several times that value is relative rather than absolute, which was my original point. Now the last step is for you to agree to the obvious - that the relativity of value is based simply on perceptions.

	11-10-2004 02:14									#441
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Don't claim to even know what the hell people are talking about then. Let alone claim to refute them. Isn't that ******* obvious enough!

You said address the first post, so I did.

	11-10-2004 02:16									#442
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

OK lets make it simple

1 You are are arguing that money can't create value

Fine by me


2 I am asking about a different issue- the effect of time on the value of money (aka the Time value of money) which you say is complete crap, but all your arguments are about point 1. If you don't want to address point 2 then this thread really is a dead loss

	11-10-2004 02:51									#443
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kid probably views time as a limitless resource, one that should have no effect on the value of anything.

	11-10-2004 03:26									#444
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

In the Kidiverse, all resources seem to be unlimited.

	11-10-2004 04:04									#445
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin OK lets make it simple 1 You are are arguing that money can't create value Fine by me 2 I am asking about a different issue- the effect of time on the value of money (aka the Time value of money) which you say is complete crap, but all your arguments are about point 1. If you don't want to address point 2 then this thread really is a dead loss

I already told you that I'm not arguing that you don't get a return on money invested.

You're doing the same thing the rest of these people are doing.

edit: added the word don't. Now you guys have a real reason to be confused.

	11-10-2004 04:09									#446
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Kid probably views time as a limitless resource, one that should have no effect on the value of anything.

You never read what people write, or you are just a big troll.

	11-10-2004 08:22									#447
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Tell you what . .. you give me 100,000 today and I'll give you back your 100,000 a year from now PLUS I'll mow your lawn ( giving you some work value).

What about inflation?

	11-10-2004 09:45									#448
	Results? -- well, a "Kid-sized" edition Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

So, after a rousing debate where many old ideas were rehashed, restated, repeated to everyone's satisfaction, we have some results.

Kidicious has raised one question which was answered (repeatedly) by many individuals on this thread. The following posters to this thread are hereby informed that they have wasted their time talking to a wall:

Aneeshm
Arrian
Asher
Boshko
DanS
Dauphin
David Floyd
DAVOUT
Drachasor
Dudemanjack
Flip McWho
Flubber
FredKarno
Imran Siddiqui
Iskandar Reza
Japher
JohnT
Kontiki
Kuciwalker
Mercator
MichaeltheGreat
Ming
Moral Hazard
Myrddin
Natalinasmpf
Odin
Pchang
Saras
Self Biased
Shogun Gunner
Skanky Burns
Solomwi
Ted Striker

	11-10-2004 11:34									#450
	Support Apolyton

It's good that you can laugh at yourself.