08-10-2004 23:10									#391
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd There IS no inherent value in goods and services! Someone has to first believe they have value for that value to exist.

People already believe that goods and services have value. They want them already. All you have to do is make them, and the value will be created.

quote: I've already gone forward with it, and given multiple examples which you haven't bothered to address. I'm still waiting to see your response to my argument that you already said had nothing wrong with it.

Go forward from where I left off with Flip McWho if you want. You're repeating his argument.

	08-10-2004 23:14									#392
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki How do YOU define value and how do YOU quantify it?

Satisfaction gained from consuming goods and services. You quantify is as the total abount of satisfaction gained by people. You can't put a number on it though. It's basically utility.

quote: What, for example, is the inherent value of an hour of work? Or an apple?

An hour of work can be worth nothing (wasted time or materials) or it can be worth a great deal (finding water when you are dying of dehydration).

	08-10-2004 23:30									#393
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

So you're admitting that there is no inherent value in anything, only that which we find useful. Following your utility definition, the same thing eventually becomes less valuable the more you have of it or do it due to declining marginal utility, correct?

By the way, how do you reconcile these two statements that you made:

quote: People already believe that goods and services have value. They want them already. All you have to do is make them, and the value will be created.

and

quote: An hour of work can be worth nothing (wasted time or materials)

	08-10-2004 23:53									#394
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: People already believe that goods and services have value. They want them already. All you have to do is make them, and the value will be created.

Sure, value may be created for somebody, but it won't be created for everybody. I have no interest in, say, a new camera, but someone else might. In that sense, then, camera production means little to me in terms of value, while it may mean a great deal to someone else.

Value changes based on needs and perceptions, and of course the laws of supply and demand.

Your responses seem to agree with that (that is, when the responses don't contradict each other).

quote: An hour of work can be worth nothing (wasted time or materials) or it can be worth a great deal (finding water when you are dying of dehydration).

Exactly! Digging a well in my backyard would be valueless, whereas digging one when I'm dying of thirst in the desert would be of great value. Either way, the labor is the same - in one situation it is valuable, in the other, it isn't.

quote: Satisfaction gained from consuming goods and services.

If that's how you quantify value, then you have to admit that value is relative, because "satisfaction gained" is also relative. Different people value different goods and services.

	09-10-2004 00:55									#395
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Anyone following along has got to be bored shitless. I know I am getting bored responding to your repeatative arguments.

	09-10-2004 00:56									#396
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

should've gone with my pancakes make you fat argument.

	09-10-2004 01:27									#397
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Anyone following along has got to be bored shitless.

	09-10-2004 02:59									#398
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker should've gone with my pancakes make you fat argument.

I eat pancakes, and I'm not fat.

	09-10-2004 09:14									#399
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Nah, Ming never locks these. DanS gets really pissed off at these threads, and always tries to stop them, but fails.

He does? The second post was actually the first time I remember DanS participating in your threads, and a quick review shows that he didn't participate in either of the Profit/Unfair Tax threads, nor the Cap. vs. Com threads between you, Skywalker, and Veloceryx (sp).

	09-10-2004 09:23									#400
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Let's try a different tack, because I'm bored and have nothing else to do...

Note that the phrase is the Time Value of Money (TVM), which applies to a very real dilemma for every single one of us, and that is the problem of the Time Value of Life, easily demonstrated by the following equation:

TVL = (Eternity - 70years)

Out of the entire existence of the Universe, I get only 70 years, meaning that if you want to borrow my money, earned from my labors, for any significant portion of my very precious time on this celestial plane, you are going to have to make it worth my while.

Capice?

	09-10-2004 09:25									#401
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I eat pancakes, and I'm not fat.

Yes but you are a Commie.

Which most likely means due to your inefficent economic scheme, you have one meal per day, at best.

	09-10-2004 09:29									#402
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Anyone following along has got to be bored shitless. I know I am getting bored responding to your repeatative arguments.

Dude, the arguments are repeatitive because you refuse to acknowledge the point. The only real way to refute your claim is through the arguments we have presented. Hence the repeatition.

	09-10-2004 11:14									#403
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Let's try a different tack, because I'm bored and have nothing else to do... Note that the phrase is the Time Value of Money (TVM), which applies to a very real dilemma for every single one of us, and that is the problem of the Time Value of Life, easily demonstrated by the following equation: TVL = (Eternity - 70years) Out of the entire existence of the Universe, I get only 70 years, meaning that if you want to borrow my money, earned from my labors, for any significant portion of my very precious time on this celestial plane, you are going to have to make it worth my while. Capice?

That's about on the level of the situation I was considering throwing out.

I'm going to give you $1,000. Do you want it tomorrow or five years from now?

	09-10-2004 12:53									#404
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Anyone following along has got to be bored shitless. I know I am getting bored responding to your repeatative arguments.

I wasn't aware that you had really responded to any of them - rather, you ignore most of them.

Although it is rather hard to refute the absolute ****ING obvious, isn't it?

	09-10-2004 20:46									#405
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Yes but you are a Commie. Which most likely means due to your inefficent economic scheme, you have one meal per day, at best.

Only because I haven't exploited poor little boys in Indonesia who dig through trash for a meager living.

	09-10-2004 20:48									#406
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by JohnT He does? The second post was actually the first time I remember DanS participating in your threads, and a quick review shows that he didn't participate in either of the Profit/Unfair Tax threads, nor the Cap. vs. Com threads between you, Skywalker, and Veloceryx (sp).

It's not the first time. He's spammed in a couple.

	09-10-2004 20:50									#407
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I wasn't aware that you had really responded to any of them - rather, you ignore most of them. Although it is rather hard to refute the absolute ****ING obvious, isn't it?

If it's obvious to you that a percepion can create something, then you believe in magic. How many times whould I tell you that perception doesn't create things.

	09-10-2004 20:56									#408
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Let's try a different tack, because I'm bored and have nothing else to do... Note that the phrase is the Time Value of Money (TVM), which applies to a very real dilemma for every single one of us, and that is the problem of the Time Value of Life, easily demonstrated by the following equation: TVL = (Eternity - 70years) Out of the entire existence of the Universe, I get only 70 years, meaning that if you want to borrow my money, earned from my labors, for any significant portion of my very precious time on this celestial plane, you are going to have to make it worth my while. Capice?

That's nice John. I'm not going to argue against that even if I don't believe it, but you haven't argued that your money has created any value. The return you get for your money is only a premium for holding less liquid investments, it isn't a compensation for creating value. If I buy a bond, I get a return on it whether the issuer created any value or not.

	09-10-2004 20:59									#409
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Dude, the arguments are repeatitive because you refuse to acknowledge the point. The only real way to refute your claim is through the arguments we have presented. Hence the repeatition.

It isn't my duty to acknowledge your point, only to present a counter argument, which I have. It's your duty to counter my argument, with arguments that haven't been made yet.

	09-10-2004 21:35									#410
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's nice John. I'm not going to argue against that even if I don't believe it, but you haven't argued that your money has created any value. The return you get for your money is only a premium for holding less liquid investments, it isn't a compensation for creating value. If I buy a bond, I get a return on it whether the issuer created any value or not.

No, the return I get is based upon the time that I was without my funds, time that I will never get back regardless of the interest rate.

In short, it's not the money that is valuable, it's time.

	09-10-2004 22:05									#411
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by JohnT No, the return I get is based upon the time that I was without my funds, time that I will never get back regardless of the interest rate. In short, it's not the money that is valuable, it's time.

Only because you have found someone to agree to pay rent. If you would have never have found someone to pay you rent, and you would have never spent you money you would not only not get a return, but your money (ie work) would never be worth anything. Money is just a store of value in the sense that it will one day be used for exchange.

Saving money doesn't do anything at all to produce goods and services. True, it needs to be put in the financial system and we need investors to invest in more or less liquid assets, but that doesn't create value. When you loan your money hopefully the borrower will hire someone to work for that money, but whatever part of that loan that is not used to hire people to work does not create value. Either way the person who did the original work for the money only created value in the amount of the work that he or she has done.

	10-10-2004 03:56									#412
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok it is based on perception. If you class that as magic then it is based on magic. Un/fortunately everyone subscribes to this "magic" and as such this system works. If you have one person who decides this system is based on magic therefore I can ignore it, well the system will ignore the person and continue on its merry way with the person changing back. It's just the way.

	10-10-2004 09:14									#413
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DanS Another DanS Certified Fvcked Up Thread.

Hey, hasn't it been at least six months since you and I agreed on anything?

	10-10-2004 09:16									#414
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Only because you have found someone to agree to pay rent. If you would have never have found someone to pay you rent, and you would have never spent you money you would not only not get a return, but your money (ie work) would never be worth anything. Money is just a store of value in the sense that it will one day be used for exchange. Saving money doesn't do anything at all to produce goods and services. True, it needs to be put in the financial system and we need investors to invest in more or less liquid assets, but that doesn't create value. When you loan your money hopefully the borrower will hire someone to work for that money, but whatever part of that loan that is not used to hire people to work does not create value. Either way the person who did the original work for the money only created value in the amount of the work that he or she has done.

This whole argument is just a regurgitation of your drivel that only labor creates values, and that one has been refuted time and again.

Apparently, in the Kidiverse, gold and horseshit have the same intrinsic value.

	10-10-2004 09:36									#415
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm still interested in seeing if Kid thinks there is a value to time, the ultimate limited resource, one that we burn through at the rate of 1 second for every... second.

	10-10-2004 15:26									#416
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: If it's obvious to you that a percepion can create something, then you believe in magic. How many times whould I tell you that perception doesn't create things.

Look, perception doesn't create any physical object. The physical object already exists. The problem is that the object does not become valuable until perception comes into play. Let's take a REAL simple example. If there is only one computer produced per year, that computer is going to be more valuable than it would be in a year in which 1 million computers are produced. In your dreamworld, the computer might be sold for the same amount both times, but that's not how it works. In real life, desired items are more valuable during shortages, and as such their value goes up.

You seem to think that the act of production automatically creates value (even though you contradict yourself). You actually have it sorta backwords - perceptions of value are what drive production.

	10-10-2004 15:55									#417
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by JohnT I'm still interested in seeing if Kid thinks there is a value to time, the ultimate limited resource, one that we burn through at the rate of 1 second for every... second.

Not in the context that you present. As time goes by more value is created, but it's not money that creates that value.

	10-10-2004 15:57									#418
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Ok it is based on perception. If you class that as magic then it is based on magic. Un/fortunately everyone subscribes to this "magic" and as such this system works. If you have one person who decides this system is based on magic therefore I can ignore it, well the system will ignore the person and continue on its merry way with the person changing back. It's just the way.

Ah, but I'm not the only one.

	10-10-2004 16:00									#419
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Ah, but I'm not the only one.

Ok your not the only one. But are you gonna try to change it or are you accepting it, nay fueling it by working within this system? Also, I'm sure some people believe like you do (hell I pretty much, well not in the rest just that post that your quoting ) but the system works and they realise this and am willing to operate within it.

	10-10-2004 16:10									#420
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Look, perception doesn't create any physical object. The physical object already exists. The problem is that the object does not become valuable until perception comes into play. Let's take a REAL simple example. If there is only one computer produced per year, that computer is going to be more valuable than it would be in a year in which 1 million computers are produced. In your dreamworld, the computer might be sold for the same amount both times, but that's not how it works. In real life, desired items are more valuable during shortages, and as such their value goes up.

True, the value of the one computer would be more because of the law of diminishing utility. What's false is that the price equals the value. It doesn't in either case, simply because the price includes all kinds of fees that are not payments for creating that good. Interest on money is one of those fees.

quote: You seem to think that the act of production automatically creates value (even though you contradict yourself). You actually have it sorta backwords - perceptions of value are what drive production.

No I don't. I've said that I don't several times in this thread. This is what I'm talking about.