08-10-2004 05:21									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Japher If you really want to get him going, Flip, get on about innovations. He believes if you develop away to create more tomatoes in the same amount of time than the cost of the cow cost twice as many tomatoes.

The price of the tomatoes WILL fall if you produce more of them.

	08-10-2004 05:25									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho You are on both counts. However satisfying your desire doesn't result in money being exchanged. Money has to be exchanged when your work satisfies somebody else's desire. [\QUOTE] Nope. Money doesn't have to exchange hands. [QUOTE] Desire is just one aspect that goes towards establishing that value.

Yep, desire is a requirement, however, it's a requirement that we don't have to worry about. There's more than enough of it. Work, on the other hand is something that we never have enough of.

	08-10-2004 05:36									#333
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Yeah its good entertainment, and procrastination too.

It took me the second try to get that. I really don't see how the cost of the cow doubles when the cow making didn't change.

	08-10-2004 05:39									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yeah its good entertainment, and procrastination too. It took me the second try to get that. I really don't see how the cost of the cow doubles when the cow making didn't change.

It's supply and demand. To sell more tomatoes you have to lower the price.

btw, I'm going to get back to the savings thing tomorrow. I want to do some refreshing on that.

	08-10-2004 05:39									#335
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quote: The price of the tomatoes WILL fall if you produce more of them.

Ok in this instance thats true. More tomatoes then want for tomatoes means to sell tomatoes price must fall.

quote: Work, on the other hand is something that we never have enough of.

Ok granted. But thats gotta do with it how?

	08-10-2004 05:40									#336
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quote: I want to do some refreshing on that.

Damn your actually researching this??

	08-10-2004 05:41									#337
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That assumes that someone else has my innovative new tomato-maker, or that I don't just use it to half the time I spend making tomatoes, and keep production constant.

	08-10-2004 05:44									#338
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Ok granted. But thats gotta do with it how?

It doesn't make any sense to say that desire is creating value if there is already plenty of it. The limiting factor is work so if we increase work we increase value. The same is not true for desire. Increasing desire does not increase value, because we already had desires that were going unfullfilled.

	08-10-2004 05:46									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Damn your actually researching this??

I will have to read some Keynes to refresh my memory if we are going to get into financial markets more.

	08-10-2004 05:49									#340
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quote: It doesn't make any sense to say that desire is creating value if there is already plenty of it. The limiting factor is work so if we increase work we increase value. The same is not true for desire. Increasing desire does not increase value, because we already had desires that were going unfullfilled.

Ok I can see your logic in there. And wouldn't increasing work decrease value using

quote: The price of the tomatoes WILL fall if you produce more of them.

The value of work will decrease if you have more work.

	08-10-2004 05:50									#341
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[QUOTE]I will have to read some Keynes to refresh my memory if we are going to get into financial markets more.[QUOTE]

Yeah I'm trying to work off two year old memory of high school economics

	08-10-2004 06:10									#342
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I haven't taken economics since 1993...

Though I play the markets a lot and study a lot about personal finances... which has nothing to do with macro economics. Still, if DanS agrees with me, I know it's right. Him and Adam Smith.

	08-10-2004 06:16									#343
	clever long thead that Marx would have loved Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Marx was a power-mad-nutter.
Money. A tool. Impossible to imagine 'civilisation' evolving without it.
Like all tools, subject to abuse and misuse. Witness this thread!
Like all tools, it is about power. This money not simple tool. Therfore very complex arguments about it.
Like it or not, the worship of power overrides all. You who argue about this money tool without considering the worship of power are fools.
Those who deride money the most are socialists who worship power the most!

	08-10-2004 06:17									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The Supply/Demand economic system is a form of rationing (supply goes down, price goes up). This is fine now, but in the future, when improvements in technology causes things too be made more cheaply and causes unemployment as things become more automanted things will come to a head.

You mean like how the industrial revolution caused everyone to become unemployed and now we live in a communist paradise?

	08-10-2004 06:21									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious This all has nothing to do with the subject. If you invest the money then you can buy more candy in the future, because you get a return on your investment. Did your money create candy bars? As Shogun has stated, "of course not."

Your money did not create candy bars, in the sense that little green slips of paper do not create candy bars, nor do bits in a computer in a bank.

However, money effectively equals capital or labor (in that it can be freely exchanged for either), and both of those DO create candy bars. Therefore, your money effectively creates candy bars.

	08-10-2004 06:26									#346
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The monetary system was created so that people could consume goods and services without doing any work.

No, the monetary system was used so that there would be a convenient way of measuring the value of items, as well as a convenient way of "storing" labor - that is, I can sell something now, but I don't have to get some product in return for what I sold until later, and I can get it from a different person.

	08-10-2004 06:37									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The machines were created and operated by labor. Land doesn't create things.

Land = resources (metals, wood, oil, etc.) which are as necessary as labor and capital for creation of goods.

And when land is used for farming, it is capital (a great big machine for making food), and therefore does make things (when coupled with labor).

	08-10-2004 07:39									#348
	Re: clever long thead that Marx would have loved Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by FredKarno Marx was a power-mad-nutter. Money. A tool. Impossible to imagine 'civilisation' evolving without it. Like all tools, subject to abuse and misuse. Witness this thread! Like all tools, it is about power. This money not simple tool. Therfore very complex arguments about it. Like it or not, the worship of power overrides all. You who argue about this money tool without considering the worship of power are fools. Those who deride money the most are socialists who worship power the most!

Moron

	08-10-2004 07:41									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Ok I can see your logic in there. And wouldn't increasing work decrease value using The value of work will decrease if you have more work.

marginal work, yes. That's the law of diminishing returns.

	08-10-2004 07:41									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I haven't taken economics since 1993... Though I play the markets a lot and study a lot about personal finances... which has nothing to do with macro economics. Still, if DanS agrees with me, I know it's right. Him and Adam Smith.

Sucker

	08-10-2004 07:45									#351
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Your money did not create candy bars, in the sense that little green slips of paper do not create candy bars, nor do bits in a computer in a bank. However, money effectively equals capital or labor (in that it can be freely exchanged for either), and both of those DO create candy bars. Therefore, your money effectively creates candy bars.

A bond recieves and interest. The issuers use the proceeds to purchase machinery and so forth. The issuers did not create that machinery and either did the buyers of the bond. The machinery was created by labor.

	08-10-2004 07:47									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No, the monetary system was used so that there would be a convenient way of measuring the value of items, as well as a convenient way of "storing" labor - that is, I can sell something now, but I don't have to get some product in return for what I sold until later, and I can get it from a different person.

True, you have to measure things to make sure that someone else does all the work.

	08-10-2004 07:49									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The machines were created and operated by labor. Land doesn't create things. Land = resources (metals, wood, oil, etc.) which are as necessary as labor and capital for creation of goods. And when land is used for farming, it is capital (a great big machine for making food), and therefore does make things (when coupled with labor).

The word 'make' or 'create,' those are verbs. Verbs show action. Land doesn't perform any action regarding the goods and services performed on it. Land 'creates' goods and services doesn't make any sense. Even you should know that.

	08-10-2004 07:59									#354
	I thought you socialist beleived in equality Remove this text

Dear Kidicious,
Does not your short reply to my post prove that you don't? How can we be equal when there is abuntant proof that we are not?

Oh....I forget. My soul has not been engineered yet. Pardon me.

	08-10-2004 08:01									#355
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quote: Originally posted by FredKarno Dear Kidicious, Does not your short reply to my post prove that you don't? How can we be equal when there is abuntant proof that we are not? Oh....I forget. My soul has not been engineered yet. Pardon me.

We aren't equal. You are just a DL.

	08-10-2004 09:01									#356
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what the blazes does 'DL' mean? Diabolical Loony perhaps? No idea(though quite right). More proof that we are utterly unequal. Therfore I win this argument by default and you should crawl into your hole and hide foreaver forth, not daring to type ever again into this internet thingy. Thus we anti-socialists win totally and conquer you. Hmnnn....let's see....

	08-10-2004 10:25									#357
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quote: True, you have to measure things to make sure that someone else does all the work.

I don't see how you arrive at this conclusion. Especially seen as commonly to get money you have to get paid wages.

A DL stands for double login.

	08-10-2004 10:51									#358
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quote: OK, but the specialist produced the work, the perception didn't.

So what? You're ignoring the issue. The specialist perceived that there was a value in laboring for a certain purpose, in exchange for a certain wage. While you might think that he misjudged value, the specialist doesn't care. The company paying him doesn't care what you think, either, because the only thing relevant about value is what the two contracting parties agree on.

	08-10-2004 10:52									#359
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho I don't see how you arrive at this conclusion. Especially seen as commonly to get money you have to get paid wages.

I'm sort of messing around with Kuciwalker. I don't consider that part of the debate serious. However, the creators of the monetary system mostly never recieved wages I think.

FredKarno,

What's your story? I still think your a DL.

	08-10-2004 10:56									#360
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quote: However, the creators of the monetary system mostly never recieved wages I think.

They'd be all dead now though, so hey. Everyone now virtually works to get paid to pay for their wants according to a price set in the market.