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Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist

And Americans wonder why they're decried as arrogant.


Last Conformist, arrogant? Hardly. We have been on the line bravely defending democracy with out blood and treasure in the world since FDR. We believe that we have some sort of manifest destiny to bring democracy to the world.

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
time: 00:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 20:50
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Ned - we are talking a commission that has been a toothless non-enforcer. Will you grant me this next fact, that even if it was technically legal, that if it was done with the knowledge that it would disenfranchise legitimate voters, that no chance was given to let them contest being disenfranchised, and that demographically more of those voters would be democrats (and that the people involved were aware of this), that it was a perversion of the democratic process. If not, what standard would you use? You know where I'm going - I'll try to find you another Shinseki style source, but I need to know the criteria. You and I typically argue rather than fight.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 21:29 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned


Anyone who is truly commited to democracy is pro-American.


Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
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I actually rarely laugh at Ned. He terrifies me, mostly because I see a little bit of him in all Americans.

GhengisFarb is offline GhengisFarb
Deity
I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 21:34 Visit GhengisFarb's homepage!
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So is Cuba just a has been counter to America now?

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned


Last Conformist, arrogant? Hardly. We have been on the line bravely defending democracy with out blood and treasure in the world since FDR. We believe that we have some sort of manifest destiny to bring democracy to the world.

In this particular case, charges of arrogance appear to be entirely justified, too.

GhengisFarb is offline GhengisFarb
Deity
I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 21:40 Visit GhengisFarb's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Last Conformist, arrogant? Hardly.

Come on, Ned. That's sarcasm, right?

Americans ARE the most arrogant people in the world, next to Liberals and the French.

With American Liberals and French Liberals being uber arrogant.........

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 22:01 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned

We believe that we have some sort of manifest destiny to bring democracy to the world.





What a bunch of hyperbole. United States has its interests in neo-colonialism, not democracy.

Sprayber is offline Sprayber

Emperor
Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun





What a bunch of hyperbole. United States has its interests in neo-colonialism, not democracy.


how about hyper-neo-colonialism or super duper-neo-colonialism.

JCG is offline JCG
Prince
between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 22:57
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Re: Russia plans to arm Venezuela to counter US backed Colombia. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Modern Russians are rather capitalist (they've even sold some helos to Colombia in the past), so I wouldn't make too much of the claim of them wanting to "extend their influence" in any "Cold War"-like fashion.

Instead, what is clear is that Venezuela's simply trying to arm itself with non-U.S. weaponry, in order to widen their already existing military superiority over Colombia. That's it. Venezuela can currently slice through any of their non-Brazilian neighbors (like Guyana, with which they have a rather big territorial dispute) quite easily, anyways.

quote:
Last month, irregular combatants from Colombia, who have still not been identified, crossed into Venezuela and killed five Venezuelan soldiers and an oil company engineer.


Yet the Venezuelan "Scientific Police" (Cicpc) has stated that preeliminary evidences do point to the FARC... Not to mention that they were involved in a previously botched kidnapping (of Venezuelans) which has been linked to the murders...seems that vague "neutrality" isn't worth too much these days if your own citizens are still going to be hurt.

quote:
Another local academic, Aníbal Romero at the Simón Bolívar University, cited rumors according to which Venezuela may try to acquire MiG-29 combat planes and light arms from the Ukraine after purchasing the Mi-26 helicopters.


They're not going to be all Mi-26; most will apparently be Mi-17. Which is confirmed by the article itself:

quote:

But Rangel noted that the helicopters that Venezuela plans to buy are already used by other countries in the region, like Mexico, Peru and even Colombia.


And that's all....*fades out*

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 23:02
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Why does, then, Venezuela, that's not fighting a civil war, have a much stronger military than Colombia, that is?

JCG is offline JCG
Prince
between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
Why does, then, Venezuela, that's not fighting a civil war, have a much stronger military than Colombia, that is?


Oil + Quite good relations with the U.S. until recently (During the 70's-80's the U.S. sold stuff to Venezuela that Colombia couldn't even dream of getting at the time) + Lack of a Civil War = A military that can concentrate on buying more expensive conventional weaponry (ie: Tanks, Fighter planes, Artillery, etc), instead of one that's by far focused on counter-insurgency and has become dependant on U.S. "aid" for most of its recent purchases.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 23:29
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Yeah, but why do they feel they need it?

JCG is offline JCG
Prince
between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 00:10
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Well, the answer is "a little bit of everything".

In addition to all that, Venezuela has always had a stronger military tradition....and then there's an unresolved territorial dispute in the Gulf of Venezuela which almost led to war in 1987. Venezuela would have kicked Colombia's ass back then, in any case, as it was much better armed already. The dispute is barely mentioned now, but it's still an underlying factor that increases tension when it comes up.

You can also add evident ideological differences to that background, which serve to fuel paranoia on both sides of the border these days.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned


Last Conformist, arrogant? Hardly. We have been on the line bravely defending democracy with out blood and treasure in the world since FDR. We believe that we have some sort of manifest destiny to bring democracy to the world.


I don't. I would hope that those in power don't either.

A two-parties is hardly a democracy.

I'm pro-Democracy, pro-America, anti-American democracy. You'd probably think I'd make a "bad" monitor.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 00:22
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the right hates Chavez so much because the Venezuelan people ELECTED HIM...

The right HATES DEMOCRACY when their guy doesn't win.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 02:34 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
Mr. Striker.

I beg your pardon, but are you saying that this is NOT a new Cold War?


DUH

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:21
Cool  Old Post 10-10-2004 02:35 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber


how about hyper-neo-colonialism or super duper-neo-colonialism.


Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 02:45 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
We have been on the line bravely defending democracy with out blood and treasure in the world since FDR. We believe that we have some sort of manifest destiny to bring democracy to the world.


We have been on the line bravely exploiting the world with their blood and treasure since FDR. We believe that we have some sort of manifest destiny to empose our capitalist system on the world.

Wow! That sounds a lot like what you said, but much closer to the truth.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 03:39 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Shawn, thousands of people lost their votes in Florida due to technicalities? Really??????

Ask the Gore supporters about overseas military whose votes were not counted due to just such technicalities.


Very few military votes weren't counted. The problem to which you are refering is the fact that the Democrats correctly challenged illegal absentee ballots, some of which were opened, most were unwitnessed, some sent after the election date, all clear violations of Florida law. However, the Dems backed down when the Repugs squealed about Gore screwing the military, and 3,000 illegal votes were counted when they should not have been.

On the other hand, at least 50,000 non-felons were pured from the voting roles on something more sinister than a technicality. They were deliberately purged even when the company during the purging informed the Secretary of State, Kate Harris, Bush's Florida Campaign manager, that they were getting a lot of false positives (which is illegal under Florida law). That wasn't a technicality, that was vote fraud. So we have to major cases of vote fraud which clearly aided Bush in 2000.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 03:48 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
IIRC, the US Civil Rights Commission conducted an investigation and concluded there was no violation.


Incorrect. They did find a violation, and that was the basis for the NAACPs successful lawsuit against the State of Florida. Florida reached a Court settlement with the NAACP without admitting any wrong doing in return for ensuring the voter list would be fixed by 2004. It is only because of the media here in Florida that Florida has not violated that consent decree, as they did the State's job for them and found many of the incorrectly listed people.

quote:
To repeat, there is a underlying assumption here that felons are Democrats.


A disprotportionate number of the people on the list are Black, and most Black people are Democrats. When I crunched the numbers three years ago, about 55% of the people on the list would be Democrats if they skewed towards normal demographics (80% of Blacks voting Democrat, etc).

Serb is offline Serb
Prince
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
Russia-Venezuela Alliance Takes Flight

by Humberto Márquez
CARACAS - The Venezuelan army plans to acquire 40 Russian helicopters within the next few months in the first step towards a new "strategic alliance" with Moscow promoted by President Hugo Chávez, who is further marking his distance from Washington.

Great news.
quote:
Another local academic, Aníbal Romero at the Simón Bolívar University, cited rumors according to which Venezuela may try to acquire MiG-29 combat planes and light arms from the Ukraine after purchasing the Mi-26 helicopters.

Mi-26 is the largest and most powerfull transport helicopter in the world, not combat. They should buy Ka-50 or Mi-28 instead.
Mi-28- kickass.

Attachment: mi-28.jpg
This has been downloaded 62 time(s).

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 07:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous


I don't. I would hope that those in power don't either.

A two-parties is hardly a democracy.

I'm pro-Democracy, pro-America, anti-American democracy. You'd probably think I'd make a "bad" monitor.


If I understand you correctly, you dislike the structure of our government. Do you prefer the Westminster form?

vodkakov is offline vodkakov
Warlord
In the student union bar!
Aug 2004
time: 05:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 07:45 Visit vodkakov's homepage!
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... this could make an interesting civ scenario... hypothetical Cold War in South America with a Russian-funded Venezuala trying to gain a foothold against the US-backed nations and the neutrals...

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


We have been on the line bravely exploiting the world with their blood and treasure since FDR. We believe that we have some sort of manifest destiny to empose our capitalist system on the world.

Wow! That sounds a lot like what you said, but much closer to the truth.


Typical communist propaganda. Communists know that with democracy comes free enterprise and it is free enterprise that they hate. Thus they oppose democracy and they oppose America.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 07:51
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Che, thanks for the informative posts. If the Civil Rights Commission found a violation, so be it.

However, I have heard to the contrary. I wonder why?

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
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  Old Post 10-10-2004 07:53
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Ned: I dislike the control of the executive branch, whose control stems from either an agreement or a disagreement with the Legislature. I think the President has too much power, and that derives from the two-party system. You either agree with your party or you seperate from it: that's not how I believe government should be run.

Take Zell Miller for an example. He has "seperated from his party" in his decisions, often aligning with the Republicans. However, he isn't a Republican. The same with Jim Jeffords. They shouldn't have to "seperate" from their party in order to get thing accomplished. A stable government works together to solve things, and all perspectives are respected, not just TWO.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 08:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Ned: I dislike the control of the executive branch, whose control stems from either an agreement or a disagreement with the Legislature. I think the President has too much power, and that derives from the two-party system. You either agree with your party or you seperate from it: that's not how I believe government should be run.

Take Zell Miller for an example. He has "seperated from his party" in his decisions, often aligning with the Republicans. However, he isn't a Republican. The same with Jim Jeffords. They shouldn't have to "seperate" from their party in order to get thing accomplished. A stable government works together to solve things, and all perspectives are respected, not just TWO.


IIRC, prior to Jackson, there was effectively only one party in the US. People within the party argued issues of states rights and central banking. Jackson changed that, fracturing the party into the Democrats and the Republicans (Whigs). So, both American national parties can trace their roots back to Jefferson.

Over time, the parties seem to change their positions on fundamental issues. For generations, the Democrat Party was the party of States Rights and Separate But Equal. They obviously have changed when the Southern Democrats revolted in '68 and backed Wallace. The decline of the power of the Southern Democrats then began and continues even 'till this day.

The benefits of a two party system seem obvious. The parties have the hue to the center in order to get elected. Radical opinions and views are never endorsed. So society is relatively stable.

The presidency is a powerful office, indeed. It was intended to be.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 09:24
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1.) You said a great deal. Doesn't mean I support it.

2.) Jackson seperated us from 1 to 2 parties, apparently. Does that mean that Jackson was right?

3.) Parties shouldn't HAVE to "hue to the center"...that's not what politics should be. That doesn't mean that's not what politics is...I just have a different opinion of what it should be.

4.) The President may be powerful but was not intended to be the be all, end all as the two-party system has shown him to be...GWB, for example, has far too much power because Congress, controlled by the Republican party, has granted him too much power, far more than he was given by anyone in our first 100 years of existence.

5.) Just because history is on the side of the president does in no way mean that I need to support it. Same goes for the two-party system.

6.) Jackson apparently changed how things operated by making two parties. Is it inconceivable that things change again to create the possibility of more parties having say?

Don't give me a history lesson...I know history. My opinion is not based on history, but based on current issues and current motives that lead me to conclude that the two-party system, in today's increasingly polarized and insteresting political world, is highly flawed.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 10-10-2004 09:31
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Emperor Fab, Bush doesn't really control the Senate as it takes 60 votes to cut off a "filibuster." Nothing gets out of Congress that is not a compromise.

BTW, the presidency in its powerful current form was created by Jackson as all prior presidents had deferred to Congress. Jackson changed that by leading the nation and telling Congress what he wanted done. If Congress balked, and they did at times, he worked hard to change the results.

As to the central balance that results from a two party system, I still see that as a strength, not a weakness.

 
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