11-10-2004 21:29									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Since we like to talk about the dictator Mossadegh being "elected," why don't we talk about Hitler being elected.

Unlike Hitler, however, Mossadegh wasn't welcomed with open arms by the West. Furthermore, unlike Hitler, he wasn't the target of plots to overthrow his government before he consolodated power. I love how conservatives like Ned always point to something after the fact as proof that their actions before the fact were justified. Had the West not tried to overthrow Mossadegh, there is no indication he would have suspended Parliament, especially cosidering he had twice resigned in the past.

It's funny how Conservatives can justify Israel or the U.S. resorting to increased police measures as a response to an external threat, yet they always deny that same right to others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossadegh

Read it and weap, Ned.

	11-10-2004 21:36									#92
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara ... It's funny how Conservatives can justify Israel or the U.S. resorting to increased police measures as a response to an external threat, yet they always deny that same right to others. ...

I can't see the Knesset or Congress approving measures that result in a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv or Washington DC.

Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if mushroom clouds did appear at those locations.

But Hey! Nobody could blame the Conservative elements for them being there... except the people that planted the weapons, of course.

	11-10-2004 22:27									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, I seem to be in a good crowd, then. All the commies here also believe in manifest destiny as well. True?

I would't know, I'm not a communist. Of course to you anyone left of Spiro Agnew is a Kommie...

	11-10-2004 22:37									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ned All the commies here also believe in manifest destiny as well.

Seeing as we tend to be atheists, a belief in manifest destiny would seem to be out of order. If you mean to make an allusion to the inevtibablity of workers' revolution, that is rhetoric. We acknowledge to strong possiblity the world will collapse into barbarism instead.

	12-10-2004 01:51									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Pax That's antidemocratic of you!

PAX, I find it amuzing that you support dictatorships and say that anyone who overthrows the dictatorship and restores democracy is antidemocratic.

	12-10-2004 01:53									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij I would't know, I'm not a communist. Of course to you anyone left of Spiro Agnew is a Kommie...

Hueij, I don't know if the line is that far right, but you're close.

	12-10-2004 07:58									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ned PAX, I find it amuzing that you support dictatorships and say that anyone who overthrows the dictatorship and restores democracy is antidemocratic.

I simply believe that it is not in the best interest nor is it the mandate of the United States to determine what kind of government other nations should have.
It falls to the people to rebel against the people to rebel against the system if they feel that system is unfair.

	12-10-2004 08:04									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned PAX, I find it amuzing that you support dictatorships and say that anyone who overthrows the dictatorship and restores democracy is antidemocratic.

Historically, the US does the exact opposite. In the case pf Venzuela, given that Chavez has neither abolished the congress nor does he rule be decree, one cannot rightlfully call him a dictator. Note, the U.S. government does not call him a dictator. It is only the wealthy of Venezuela and their stooges in the US that call him one.

	12-10-2004 10:32									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I simply believe that it is not in the best interest nor is it the mandate of the United States to determine what kind of government other nations should have. It falls to the people to rebel against the people to rebel against the system if they feel that system is unfair.

PAX, the only people who seemed to be upset by America upending dictators are the dictators themselves, the people who depended on his regime and liberals like you. The people of the liberated country are greatly appreciated of American help.

	12-10-2004 10:34									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Historically, the US does the exact opposite. In the case pf Venzuela, given that Chavez has neither abolished the congress nor does he rule be decree, one cannot rightlfully call him a dictator. Note, the U.S. government does not call him a dictator. It is only the wealthy of Venezuela and their stooges in the US that call him one.

Che, I think Chavez claim to the title of being a dictator is still in the making. All he has to do is delay, rig or otherwise cancel the next election in Venezuela in order to complete his ursupation.

	12-10-2004 10:47									#101
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Way to go, Ned. Chavez is a dictator because he's going to usurp the presidency, proved straight from your ass.

I guess you're pushing for a pre-emptive strike against him? Surely these MiGs must be a threat against your security.

	12-10-2004 10:54									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Way to go, Ned. Chavez is a dictator because he's going to usurp the presidency, proved straight from your ass. I guess you're pushing for a pre-emptive strike against him? Surely these MiGs must be a threat against your security.

I think we stay out of the politics of Venezuela until Chavez does something the whole world agrees is an ursupation.

	12-10-2004 11:04									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ned PAX, the only people who seemed to be upset by America upending dictators are the dictators themselves, the people who depended on his regime and liberals like you. The people of the liberated country are greatly appreciated of American help.

What makes me liberal? My belief in the declaration of independence? The constitution? The right to bear arms? Universal suffrage? My military service? I like to think of myself as a patriot.

	12-10-2004 13:03									#104
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Pax - it's this whole thing now that unless you accept the neocon gospel in it's entirety, you're liberal. My standing joke these days is that I'm an endangered species, a moderate Republican.

	12-10-2004 17:39									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ned PAX, the only people who seemed to be upset by America upending dictators are the dictators themselves, the people who depended on his regime and liberals like you. The people of the liberated country are greatly appreciated of American help.

I can see how greatly appreciative the Vietnamese and the Iraqi's are.

	12-10-2004 17:40									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I can see how greatly appreciative the Vietnamese, Cubans, Phillipino's and the Iraqi's are/were.

	12-10-2004 18:06									#107
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quote: Ned wrote: Well, I seem to be in a good crowd, then. All the commies here also believe in manifest destiny as well. True?

That's why we find them as scary as you.

I notice, BTW, that the UN goals you claim to fight for do not include democracy.

	12-10-2004 18:40									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist quote: Ned wrote: Well, I seem to be in a good crowd, then. All the commies here also believe in manifest destiny as well. True? That's why we find them as scary as you. I notice, BTW, that the UN goals you claim to fight for do not include democracy.

Yes they do. They include the word "larger freedom" to make it clear that what the UN supports is "real" democracy as opposed the kind we see in the Democratic Peoples Republic of....

But suppose you Communists will respond that what larger freedom that really means is "freedom from want." But that would bring us a full circle, would it not, because "freedom from want" means "want of freedom."

	12-10-2004 18:42									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Pax What makes me liberal? My belief in the declaration of independence? The constitution? The right to bear arms? Universal suffrage? My military service? I like to think of myself as a patriot.

There's an old saying about a duck. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

	12-10-2004 18:45									#110
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PAX, see so many posts on Dictators, I find myself uncertain of your question. I would suggest naming the Dictator that the US unseated.

	12-10-2004 18:47									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There's an old saying about a duck. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

That's my point exactly. I'm a patriot and you're a duck.

	12-10-2004 18:57									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Pax That's my point exactly. I'm a patriot and you're a duck.

The word that best describes you PAX is "enemy combatant."

	12-10-2004 19:42									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The word that best describes you PAX is "enemy combatant."

Ned, if you consider me an "enemy combatant" , then you must surely hate freedom. You are obviously, in league with terrorists, communists or maybe even the legion of doom.
You see, I am a loyal member of the U.S. military. I have a sworn allegiance to this country that goes beyond reciting the national anthem at baseball games.
You are a traitor to your country!

	12-10-2004 19:44									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Ned, if you consider me an "enemy combatant" , then you must surely hate freedom. You are obviously, in league with terrorists, communists or maybe even the legion of doom. You see, I am a loyal member of the U.S. military. I have a sworn allegiance to this country that goes beyond reciting the national anthem at baseball games. You are a traitor to your country!

PAX, if you side with the enemy, always condemn the United States and are a combatant, then you are an enemy combatant.

	12-10-2004 19:46									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ned PAX, if you side with the enemy, always condemn the United States and are a combatant, then you are an enemy combatant.

Which enemy have I sided with?
When have I ever condemned the U.S.?

	12-10-2004 19:53									#116
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Seriously, I think the difference of opinion comes from how we interpret patriotism and loyalty.
It's my patriotism and loyalty that causes me to want the U.S. to not just do what will maintain our dominance over the world but also to do what's morally and legally right. I do not feel that the U.S. has the right to invade/bring democracy to other countries. I also feel that it's my duty as an american citizen to question laws or actions by the government that I feel or wrong/unjust. In that way, I hope to make the U.S. a better country and government. If anything, it's my love I have for the U.S. that is responsible for my words/actions.

	12-10-2004 20:04									#117
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Pax, now you are talking some sense.

	12-10-2004 20:07									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, I think Chavez claim to the title of being a dictator is still in the making. All he has to do is delay, rig or otherwise cancel the next election in Venezuela in order to complete his ursupation.

Yeah, that's what they said about the last one. See what I mean. You people justify your criminal actions by pointing to the events you cause. Your people are the reason this world is so ****ed up.

	12-10-2004 20:12									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, that's what they said about the last one. See what I mean. You people justify your criminal actions by pointing to the events you cause. Your people are the reason this world is so ****ed up.

I know Che. All commie dictators are bad people, murderers of political opponents and the like, because of the United States.

	12-10-2004 20:25									#120
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Just a few pages earlier you still had to be corrected on Mossadegh. It's quite obvious he relied on dictatorial means becauce of US actions.

Face it, Ned. Communism was a very popular ideology during the Cold War, and the only way to prevent it from spreading was with force, as letting the democratic course go would have been a disaster for American interests. In that sense, Che is right.